lamson
Active Member
Posts: 429
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Post by lamson on Nov 12, 2007 19:32:33 GMT
As a generalism do you find that these benefit less from pulling with the lower hand on the forward stroke than their tippier counterparts.
Comments and discussion please.
Lamson
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leo
Active Member
Posts: 98
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Post by leo on Nov 12, 2007 19:45:38 GMT
From my very limited experience I reckon that it's less crucial to use the bottom hand much with butt-actioned (sounds obscene!) rods to make an effective cast than with a faster one. However, I think that even with a butt-actioned one, the cast greatly improves with the use of more bottom hand.
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
Posts: 4,659
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Post by conwyrod on Nov 12, 2007 19:56:26 GMT
I agree with Leo's comments.
My 13' Greyflex is fairly fast and certainly speycasts better when pulling in with the lower hand.
My more butt-actioned B&W rods speycast better fullstop, but a little lower hand pull certainly helps.
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hf
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Post by hf on Dec 2, 2008 20:57:51 GMT
Was reading Ian Gordon's web site and enjoyed the article under the heading (in the menu) 'casting lines'. Thought it was very useful in understanding how the rod's action has a bearing on how the arms/hands are used and also how the length of line can assist the cast as well. If you are now confused - as you may think I am ;D - then the link to read the article is www.speycaster.co.uk/There is also an interesting read on loading the rod. Cheers hf (this link may have been posted already)
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Post by sportfisher on Dec 5, 2008 0:34:43 GMT
There is only one way to load a salmon rod efficiently and that it to compress it using both hands and stop it using both hands only then can we achieve tip speed
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hf
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Post by hf on Dec 5, 2008 10:13:07 GMT
There is only one way to load a salmon rod efficiently and that it to compress it using both hands and stop it using both hands only then can we achieve tip speed sportfisher... can you explain a bit further what you mean by 'compress with both hands'. I have read your recent post on 'single spey stop point' and follow it completely and am now trying to fit where the part to do with 'compression' comes into it. My own casting ability is very average but I do enjoy thinking about it and working on it - theory as well as on the river. Cheers hf (highland fisher)
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Post by sportfisher on Dec 5, 2008 11:20:39 GMT
Hi hf, What i mean by compressing the rod with both hands Lets just take the overhead cast for example (as the principles remain the same)if we wanted to cast backwards the top hand would be pulling and the bottom hand pushing (we are compressing or bending the rod efficiently) likewise if we cast forward the top hand would now be pushing and the bottom hand pulling we cannot bend the rod tip properly on a modern carbon two-handed rod using only one hand more importantly every cast we do depends upon the speed of the rod tip this can only be achieved by stopping the rod using both hands (most people try to stop the rod using only the top hand) if this is done correctly we get maximum speed at the rod tip also if you think where you are stopping the rod tip (at the height were you want the cast to travel) this is important as the rod tip is the last point of contact between you and the line. This does take a bit of practice but you would be amazed at the results with so little effort it was Peter Anderson that taught me this and remember I called it his tecnique which he replied it doesen't belong to me it is the only way to do it.
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hf
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Post by hf on Dec 5, 2008 12:17:26 GMT
Hi hf, What i mean by compressing the rod with both hands Lets just take the overhead cast for example (as the principles remain the same)if we wanted to cast backwards the top hand would be pulling and the bottom hand pushing (we are compressing or bending the rod efficiently) likewise if we cast forward the top hand would now be pushing and the bottom hand pulling we cannot bend the rod tip properly on a modern carbon two-handed rod using only one hand sportfisher... thanks for the reply. I have read the first part - as quoted above - and follow what you say, thanks. I'm now on to the next part about 'tip speed' and will get back to you when I've worked that part out too. ;D thanks again hf
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hf
Active Member
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Post by hf on Dec 5, 2008 17:53:14 GMT
sportfisher... back again. Is it the compression by both hands which creates the tip speed? If so, then will that happen without having to think about it during the cast. (tip speed) Or to put it in another way, if I remember to use both hands as you have outlined, then automatically the tip speed will be at its greatest? Hope the above makes sense and thanks again. hf
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Post by sportfisher on Dec 5, 2008 21:48:32 GMT
Hi, The compression using both hands will bend the rod properly but it is the stopping of the rod correctly (using top and bottom hands) that will cause the tip to "flip over" at the greatest speed there is no power in the rod until it is stopped
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Post by builnacraig on Dec 5, 2008 21:59:39 GMT
I am not really conscious of making a stop on the forward cast when using a double hander. I think my action is more of a follow through on the forward cast till the rod is down at its fishing position. I have seen some of the casting videos where the caster makes a very abrupt stop and a very narrow loop goes shooting forward. It looks very impressive, sexy in fact, but I think if I tried that on the river bank I would soon be untangling my leader! Maybe that is shy I should have asked for a casting lesson for my Christmas instead of a casting dvd.
However, concentrating on a stop on the forward cast may be my New Years resolution?
Builnacraig
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hf
Active Member
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Post by hf on Dec 5, 2008 23:38:10 GMT
Hi, The compression using both hands will bend the rod properly but it is the stopping of the rod correctly (using top and bottom hands) that will cause the tip to "flip over" at the greatest speed there is no power in the rod until it is stopped sportfisher... thanks again for the explanation. I'm not sure if I understand the dynamics of it all but I hear what you're saying (call me thick if you like ;D) and think that what you have described is what I have been trying to do this past summer. I have not thought of it in terms of tip speed though, more a case of using both hands, timing, and easiness. I did change my technique a little this summer on advice - on the floating line - and found it more effortless from what I had been doing before. It also included more 'punch'. This technique was explained to me this summer and I suspect that it may be based on the thinking of Peter Anderson. (not totally sure though) I was taught from the start to put right foot forward - lower hand is now at heart area and upper hand out a bit and around shoulder height. Line allowed to sag when tip is lifted to say 10.30ish, turn comes first of all with the hips, rod tip goes outward and by the time of completion of turn the lower hand is out from the heart and the upper hand is in toward the shoulders. (I have stopped lifting the rod upwards toward the end of the turn) When I see the fly anchoring and feel the rod reloading/loaded I then pull on the lower hand and push out with the upper hand. The rod does not feel too far out from the body at any time. When I set my mind to it I will stop the rod but when I go for greater distance (practice) I think, I allow it to come down too far down. There is very little effort required for normal fishing when there is no real wind. I can not say the same however when the wind is up and conditions are more difficult. More snags etc etc etc. Also the river I fish is not the widest. (The above is what goes through my head but I do accept that what is actually happening may be something completely different.) One question I have about this however is, 'Is this method as effective when one is wading up to ones waist in water or is there a need again to raise the arms/rod towards the completion of the turn'? Hope the above makes sense hf
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Post by sinkingtip on Dec 6, 2008 12:46:40 GMT
I am not really conscious of making a stop on the forward cast when using a double hander. Sounds like the hallmark of a good cast BNC ? One where you are NOT aware of 'checking' the rod at 45 degrees (or whatever) on the forward stroke - but it WILL be there !! If you aren't checking the rod in some way, chances are your fly line will be rolling out along the surface from the rod tip to the flee. Talking mainly about overhead casting here BTW. Canny believe it - 'Tip' geein casting advice ;D
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Post by sinkingtip on Dec 6, 2008 15:04:07 GMT
HF - with no disrespect to your ghillie I can only assume you were 'checking' (stopping briefly - albeit until natural gravity takes over) your rod way to high on the forward stroke ie. between 10pm + 11pm on 'the clock face' as opposed to 10pm or just below. Any lower than 10pm (or 45 degrees give or take a 'ba hair) and you are getting on for 9pm which is virtually horizontal with the surface and will cause the line to roll out along the top of the water as previously stated - which, as we all know, is to be avoided at all costs. Ever watched guy's overhead casting ? - I know its a rare sight these days. Good casters I mean - watch their forward stroke. Invariably there is a short 'click' or pause evident as the rod is brought forward before what appears to be a cushion of air (natural gravity) allows it an effortless decent downwards towards its final resting place. But then again, should we even be discussing such archaic casting techniques in these modern times ? - let alone the fact that DT lines are increasingly becoming more difficult to get hold of ...... OK - I know you can overhead cast with a 'spey' profile ...... but its not the same - is it ? BNC - only in 'life'. Ask boys that ken how to cast - no me. regards STip
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Post by sinkingtip on Dec 7, 2008 14:22:41 GMT
My hand slipped and I seem to have deleted some posts of mine... oh dear! Hope no inconvenience results. ;D Me too. Now where were we ....... ?
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Post by sportfisher on Dec 7, 2008 16:22:19 GMT
Hi Hf, With regard to your question about casting when you are wading There are a few adjustments that have to be made when wading deep, first I still use the same technique but I do raise all my movements slightly higher as you say also the tempo or speed will increase also to prevent line stick. As for gaining more distance the main things which have to increase are (in basic terms as there is a lot more) the size of the D loop the length of your stroke (which means how much your hands, arms, rod and body move duing the cast )and the speed which is applied at the end just like a golfer a full stroke is more efficient than a half stroke
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hf
Active Member
Posts: 1,807
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Post by hf on Dec 7, 2008 17:07:19 GMT
sportfisher... thanks again for the advice. Appreciated, and something for me to concentrate on in the spring time. hf
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