salmo
Advisory Board
Posts: 1,814
|
Post by salmo on Sept 26, 2007 19:14:04 GMT
Catch and release has always been a controversial subject. Views range from a basic observation that the angler only contacts a small proportion of the salmon that enter a river so what possible effect could there be in taking one home; to some very famous rivers in that have a 100% CR policy.
There is a great film on the salmon fishing on the Kola where the commentator explains that the salmon are a scarce resource that need managing in the same way as money. ie It is OK to harvest the interest but reckless to reduce the capital!
What are the views from our members and how has this affected the fish returns on your favorite rivers.
salmo
|
|
fruity
Active Member
Posts: 425
|
Post by fruity on Sept 26, 2007 20:05:46 GMT
Many people I'd asked about catch and release had a bigger issue in being told what to do rather than releasing fish. I think if each angler were issued 6 non-transferable tags and then have to return everything after, that this would be more acceptable. Fishery Boards could sell extra tags at a disproportionate cost (to the market value of a salmon-yes I know it is illegal to sell in Scotland), in order to allow those who have the money and have a desire to keep more fish, to fund fishery improvements.
|
|
salmondan
Active Member
There's always a chance!
Posts: 324
|
Post by salmondan on Sept 26, 2007 21:38:12 GMT
I would like to see C&R guidelines/rules go deeper than actual numbers of fish. Hen fish are far more valuable than c0ck fish so should be given special consideration. What would you lot think of releasing ALL hen fish and keeping (if that's what you want to do) 2 or 3 c0ck fish per year? Surely that is enough for anyone's table? Never mind giving to friends, they can go to Tesco and pick one they like the look of. Nobody has friends so good that they would run the risk of contributing to the destruction of the stocks of fish that they vociferously claim to love fishing for. (bad grammar, for which you have my most sincere apologies, but I hope to have made a point).
|
|
hornet
Active Member
Posts: 1,120
|
Post by hornet on Sept 26, 2007 21:44:17 GMT
Totally agree with you Dan on the hen fish. I would also like to see all Spring fish returned on all rivers.
Cheers
Hornet
|
|
fruity
Active Member
Posts: 425
|
Post by fruity on Sept 26, 2007 22:15:43 GMT
The problem with returning all spring fish, is just how do many anglers tell a spring fish from a summer fish at the back end. If the Fishery Boards/Environment Agency are serious about substantially increasing numbers of spring salmon then they already know how to set about this, and yes it will cost money. Stopping the knocking of a few spring salmon is mainly symbolic and won't have any dramatic affect to spring stocks.
(Is that the sound of WG's keyboard I hear?)
|
|
|
Post by builnacraig on Sept 27, 2007 6:26:04 GMT
The problem with returning all spring fish, is just how do many anglers tell a spring fish from a summer fish at the back end. Are you serious???, or one a wind up?? A spring fish in the back end will be like a kipper/bag of eggs and there is no way anyone should be killing these fish. If you think this is the case then there is a need for a massive education campaign to "enlighten" ignorant anglers. Builnacraig
|
|
fruity
Active Member
Posts: 425
|
Post by fruity on Sept 27, 2007 7:59:15 GMT
Serious, no wind up, though I would ask you to note my actual remarks. The reality of the situation is that there are many anglers who only catch fish in the Autumn and they want to take a couple. When they catch fish I can see them looking for some kind of approval for their craving such as...thats not so bad, or, ......thats a late summer fish, or, ....that should smoke well, or, I think you deserve to take that fish etc. Stopping such practices is very difficult and it takes time to weed these people out, often they just move elsewhere and they never cease to be "kipper killers". I can not believe such people are merely ignorant. Actually defining what a spring fish is on the river bank can be difficult so passing a law that says springers can't be killed at anytime but, early summer fish can, would just be another unenforceable and pointless law. Far better to pass simple and enforceable laws such as you can only kill fish between 1st June and 31st August and then you are limited to a certain number.
|
|
|
Post by Willie Gunn on Sept 27, 2007 9:52:34 GMT
Let me point out a few flaws in the above arguments 6 tags = 6 dead fish so if 1 angler comes up for a week in May on the Spey and catches six cracking springers he can kill them all, 0% C&R by today’s Spey Board rules at least 3 would have to be released 50% C&R. Now let us assume the lucky angler got 7 fish in case 1 he would return the seventh giving 14% C&R or in case 2 ….. 57%. Let us further assume he had a bad year, high water/ cold winds or simply lack of fish in the tag case he has 0 % C&R but by today’s rules 100%
C&R is not the only policy adopted to enhance the spring run. C&R does have a more significant effect on spring fish than later run fish as many studies have shown. It is still possible to catch Spring fish between 1st June and 31st August.
The case of spring fish caught in the Autumn ought to be covered by the rule “ return all coloured and gravid fish” BUT I agree I have seen the “fishmongers” with the hen fish saying that it is not too red………………obviously as hen fish do not turn red or the cock fish that would make a grand smoker, which it will not as most of the fat has gone.
Releasing all the hens and killing only cock fish? Any of you boys have sex? It takes two to tango. Surely if nature to have 50% male and 50% female this was for a reason?
|
|
fruity
Active Member
Posts: 425
|
Post by fruity on Sept 27, 2007 10:43:19 GMT
It is possible to catch a springer at any time of year, but at least limiting the killing of salmon between a set period is easy to police and enforce.
A few years ago I saw a bright and shiny cock of about 13Ib landed, I saw the angler pick it up from the bushes 10 minutes later and it had coloured up to a degree I couldn’t believe. There was absolutely no indication from its original lustre that it would darken or colour up to the degree that it did. Therefore I don’t think you can necessarily go on colour.
And just what do you do with the early springers running in the Autumn? Some anglers look at those firm bright silver fish and use those points as an excuse to knock them on the head, even though they would return them if they’d been caught in January….the end of this line of argument is to have 100% catch and release.
From a position of practicalities/law enforcement, also desire of anglers to keep fish (and I want to keep a few), I think either 100% catch and release or tagged system in operation for a two or three month period are the routes.
Amused by comment “not too red”, just what do they think is an acceptable shade of red.
|
|
|
Post by builnacraig on Sept 27, 2007 19:01:01 GMT
Fruity, I hear a lot of anglers promoting your suggestion to issue six tags and I can see the merit of that in limiting the activities of the fishmongers but it may also subconsciously make the average angler feel that it is acceptable to take six fish. What if every angler took 6? The 2006 salmon and sea trout catch statistics for Scotland have just been published see: www.marlab.ac.uk/Delivery/News/display_newsitem.aspx?contentid=2213(The report is interesting reading although it is difficult to tease out the info for each river). Less than 40,000 salmon were retained in 2006. How many salmon anglers are there? On one of my local rivers there are 1400+ club anglers. There must be 50,000 salmon anglers in Scotland (anybody seen any figures?), thank fully most of us don't catch that many and a lot of us put most of them back. Builnacraig
|
|
fruity
Active Member
Posts: 425
|
Post by fruity on Sept 27, 2007 19:55:06 GMT
Dear Builnacraig
Ok. The reality of your argument undermines my own views to the point that I can't defend an 6 tag/fish limit. The trouble is that I know I am not alone in wishing to take a few salmon and even if I forget friends/relatives and keep it down to two salmon for my own use, overall your argument and facts still prick my conscience. If you keep this up I won't kill any!
You are exalted!
|
|
Speyducer
Advisory Board
Release to spawn another day
Posts: 4,123
|
Post by Speyducer on Sept 27, 2007 20:33:55 GMT
It is heartening to read that both the rod-catches and the release rates are up for salmon in Scotland, including the 65% return rate of what appears to be defined as spring fish.
More disappointing figures are given for the seatrout catches, however.
It is my view, though, that although catch and release as a philosophy is gaining ground, as this has to exclude the compulsory catch & release policy on the Dee since 1995.
However, the argument for a certain number of tags issued to fishermen per season is not unreasonable, due to the following observations:
Some fishermen get insufficient time to fish, and perhaps wouldn't fill their annual limit even with 100% fish retained. Other more successful fishermen may catch more than their limit for the season, but other constraints (springers, dark or gravid fish) may mean that less than the limit are taken home. It is the 'successful' fishermen that the tag system will affect the most. If Joey 'cascade' Bloggs catches 50 fish in a season, and he undertakes the average release rate of 55%, he would go home with ~22 fish. With the tag system, he would only be taking, say 6 fish.
Such a system would take a while & expense to introduce, and would almost certainly require the setting up of a national licence system, so that the tags would be issued to the licence holder. Such a system operates in Eire, with 10 tags issued per licence for the season, and 5 more tags can be purchased at additional cost if the 10 tags are used.
A more sensible method is continued education, and looking very closely at current working models of successful watersheds operating enforceable C&R (the Dee is the best example in Scotland).
Once we do realise that the most powerful tool in our fishing creel is the digital camera, we'll join the human race again, and leave such magnificent creatures for our children & grandchildren.
Mike
|
|
|
Post by neptune on Sept 27, 2007 21:11:40 GMT
if 6 tags were issued who would police this, there are some unscrupulous anglers who allready take to many fish so how would this stop them. maybe there should be dedicated months or weeks or days with 100% c & r.
|
|
salmondan
Active Member
There's always a chance!
Posts: 324
|
Post by salmondan on Sept 27, 2007 22:18:22 GMT
Releasing all the hens and killing only cock fish? Any of you boys have sex? It takes two to tango. Surely if nature to have 50% male and 50% female this was for a reason? You've got a one track mind Malcolm I read somewhere recently (a bad habit I know and one I should give up) that a significant proportion of salmon eggs are fertilised by juvenile fish. One reason given for this is that the juveniles are faster to "react" than the adult fish, so can nip in and do the deed before the adult male gets the chance to finish the job himself. IF this is the case (and surely it will be in some instances), then releasing all hen fish will have an effect more beneficial than killing a set number of fish, regardless of sex. Another thing to consider is that the hen fish will carry and deposit a fixed number of eggs, the c0ck fish however, is not quite so limited in his sexual activities and will be able to fertilise many females.
|
|
Griais
Active Member
Posts: 12
|
Post by Griais on Sept 27, 2007 23:00:24 GMT
I know one head keeper who feels strongly about returning hens and keeping just cock fish. He'd rather both sexes went back. As WG says, it takes two to tango. What happens if anglers fishing a river are so 'well educated' in the needs to return hen fish that the only fish they ever keep are cock fish - where's the balance in that. It's just diluting the male pool and, by default, denying females more lovin'.
|
|
|
Post by builnacraig on Sept 28, 2007 17:07:39 GMT
Releasing all the hens and killing only cock fish? Any of you boys have sex? It takes two to tango. Surely if nature to have 50% male and 50% female this was for a reason? Yes I have had sex, and I have had sex with more than one of the opposite sex, although I should add, never with more than one at the same time. My understanding of the procreation business is that that is the normal behaviour for us humans although there are some who will have taken things a bit further than I. However, thats not the way salmon do it. It is every cock for himself, as well as the wee cock parr, as salmondan points out. I think it has been well established that the dominant cocks share their loving with more then one hen. I haven't seen any evidence that there are maiden hens out there, unsatisfied and frustrated after all they have had to go through. So I have to agree with salmondan again, the loss of a hen is a loss of breeding potential to the system. By the way I am not advocating total c&r for hen salmon, that would be fraught with difficulties. For example how would you be able to tell for certain whether a fresh run fish was a hen or cock. That would be hoping for too much considering that a lot of anglers go colour blind when faced with a stale cock fish in the back end and are not able to assess whether it is "too red" or not! Builnacraig
|
|
|
Post by salmonking on Sept 28, 2007 18:05:32 GMT
For example how would you be able to tell for certain whether a fresh run fish was a hen or cock.
Builnacraig
[/quote]
That depends on what time of year it is,,,,springers can be notoriously difficult to determine wether cock or hen fish,,this i have found out the difficult way, i once took a spring fish that id put money on was a cock,but when i opened it up,,was a hen.
This time of year even the freshest cock's have a kype,I M O they're just as important as hen fish.
|
|
|
Post by speyghillie on Oct 3, 2007 12:45:05 GMT
An endless thread with lots of various opinions - normally happens though on a subject where there is no definitive answer. Got the day off so I'll join in.
Watching fish being routinetly killed throughout the season is actually quite sickening and I no longer kill fish on behalf of my guests, unless they are very very deeply hooked. Seen and done too much of it over the years and hope to teach others from my mistakes.
Our beat released almost 80% of our fish this year - and over 85% of Springers and therefore as you may imagine, I am a keen supporter of Catch & Release. In fact, I'd personally like to see as close as possible to 100% C & R and the majority of our guests are thankfully coming around to thet way of thinking.
For those who 'pefer to make their own decision' & 'enjoy the taste' get over it, I've heard enough drivel to write a book!
|
|
murfey
Active Member
Posts: 18
|
Post by murfey on Oct 3, 2007 13:54:12 GMT
Speyghillie, I will nominate you for chairman of Tay District Salmon Fisheries Board at their A.G.M in December!!!!!(If only I could )
|
|
fruity
Active Member
Posts: 425
|
Post by fruity on Oct 3, 2007 15:46:09 GMT
The Life History and Habits of the Salmon by PD Malloch contains many photos and details of identifying hens and cocks of first and second spawners etc etc.
|
|