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Post by iainjay on Jan 1, 2010 23:47:42 GMT
I can understand that in spring when rivers are high and large patterns are the order of the day,leaders of 20lb or more are deemed necessary.I also see the advantage of small flees during the summer months in lower river levels...BUT...what I can't get my head round is the use of much lighter leaders at this time of the season.Is it purely to assist in the presentation of a much smaller flee? I ask this because surely there are big fish to be had.Is it not asking a lot to maybe hook into a 25 or 30lb fish (in my dreams) with only a 10lb leader?Just what should you consider as minimum strength?
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
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Post by conwyrod on Jan 2, 2010 0:39:58 GMT
Low water and small flies is the only scenario in which I might still consider using flurocarbon, due to it's lower diameter.
I feel reasonably happy using 8lb maxima in the summer, on the rivers I usually fish.
Some people use a rapala knot for small flies - it forms a loop which allows you to use thicker nylon with small fly.
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Post by iainjay on Jan 2, 2010 1:37:28 GMT
Hi John, I can see the point of thinner line with a small fly but still am not sure why folk are so confident when there is is still that chance of a large fish taking your offer.Is it ALL down to presentation?
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
Posts: 4,659
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Post by conwyrod on Jan 2, 2010 11:27:33 GMT
Hi Ian - presentation is clearly the reason why lighter leaders are necessary with small flies. A size 14 fly won't swim properly on 10lb maxima, and the 10lb nylon will stand out in low clear water.
In low water conditions, it's not uncommon for trout anglers to hook salmon on small flies and 3lb nylon - I suppose many fish are lost but some are landed. I think this proves that in such conditions light tackle and a stealthy approach are needed.
I've landed salmon to 10lb on 8lb maxima. I think a big (20lb+) salmon would easily break you, but with a bit of care during playing I'm reasonably happy using 8lb maxima for salmon fishing in this country.
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Post by sinkingtip on Jan 3, 2010 23:28:06 GMT
Hi John, I can see the point of thinner line with a small fly but still am not sure why folk are so confident when there is is still that chance of a large fish taking your offer.Is it ALL down to presentation? Whilst presentation is for the greater part the be all and end all in game fishing (apart from the desirability of there being a fish or two about in the first place) as John has said, "a bit of care during playing" will normally allow you to land a fish far in excess of the stated breaking strain of your leader - although in all probability it will mean a longer period of play. On a personal level I would normally fish between 18 / 25 breaking strain on larger rivers during the earlier or later parts of the season due to the probable size / weight of fly in use. On the same rivers during the late spring / summer months it would range between 12 /18lbs again depending on size of fly, temperature and water clarity for example. For smaller rivers 12lb b/s (15 at a push) would be my upper limit for early / late / high / cold water with between 8 / 10lb for lower / clearer/ warmer conditions. As a devoted night time sea trout fisher I now no longer go under 8lbs even in low clear conditions - used to be 6lb but at dead of night with a heavy fish 'on' the extra 2lbs instills a much needed sense of calming reassurance.
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Post by goosander on Jan 14, 2010 11:00:31 GMT
Another point regarding fine leaders is that you usualy only use them in low water ie. warm water. The fish are more inclined to move about then were as in the cold water they can hug the bottom and you need heavy tackle to pull there heads over. Usualy get up to 20 fish largest 17lbs on the trout rod most years and provided that you can keep as little line in the water as possible then it is just a case of hanging onand hopeing for the best.
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Post by tweedbunnet on Jan 14, 2010 15:34:12 GMT
In the days of Gut and Turle Knots, the thickness of the gut to be used with a specific fly was how it "bent" when tied on to the cast - as it was then called.
The theory was that a Fly and Cast were matched if the fly "bent" the cast only a little bit if held out between finger and thumb.
If the cast was too thick for the fly, it would stand out straight.
If the cast was too thin, the fly would collapse it and it would droop down
Clearly anglers of earlier eras thought about this, possible more so when Greased Line Fishing became popularised.
I think there is a case for the Rapala Knot, the Double Turle and related knots which make the swim either fre-swimming or held in line with the leader.
The much thinner diameter of Fluorocarbon means that the principal gauge is Leader Thickness
If you use 15lb Maxima as your standard, it has a diametre of 0.35 mm. I would be ok with leaders which taper down to about 0.25mm or about 10lb for small flies like a 12. Maybe a Rapala knot if using even smaller Drury Trebles
As regards larger flies and Tubes, I only fish up to about 23lb Seagaur as a maximum Tippet for heavy Sunk line.
I like Rio Flouroflex 12lb as it it a very good all round breaking strain and it can cover a lot of fishing situations from Trout to Salmon.#
When all is said and done, you will (IMHO) tend to catch more Salmon, more oftem in the summer if fishing thinner rather than thicker leaders
tweedbunnet
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Post by G Ritchie on Jan 14, 2010 22:13:50 GMT
During the spring when you are fishing a large fly deep in the water, there should be no reason to go below 15lb nylon (heavier if using fluorocarbon). During low water in the summer months when fishing a relatively small river with few snags and a fairly gentle current, you can go down to 6lb nylon, although I seldom go below 8lb. I have caught a number of salmon on 4lb nylon while targeting trout, but I would not recommend going this low intentionally. As mentioned above a good guide is to match the leader strength to the size of the fly you are using. As a rough guide I would use the following breaking strain of nylon (go up at least one size for fluorocarbon).
Large tubes - 20lb Smaller metal tubes - 15lb size 6 - 15lb size 8 - 12lb size 10 - 10 or 12lb size 12 - 8 or 10lb size 14 or 16 - 6 or 8lb
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burnie
Active Member
Posts: 1,183
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Post by burnie on Apr 25, 2010 9:49:02 GMT
Prior to moving to Scotland,most of my fishing was for large course fish,Carp in particular.A similar problem occured with line strengths and diameters.Their solution was braid,not the garish yellow stuff used for sea fishing,but camoflaged stuff.Now I know you would use much longer leaders for fly fishing,but I will try it and see if it has any legs.This way you can use 30lb breaking strain with the diameter of 10lb.
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Post by greenman on Apr 25, 2010 11:43:01 GMT
Interesting Burnie, can you post a link to the stuff you use?
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burnie
Active Member
Posts: 1,183
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Post by burnie on Apr 26, 2010 18:29:08 GMT
Interesting Burnie, can you post a link to the stuff you use? www.anglingdirect.co.uk/store/carp/fox-gravitron-carp-braidI've not yet tried this but this is the kind of thing I was thinking of,I have some contacts in Englandshire so I will make some enquiries and once I've had a few casts,I will give you a report. www.foxint.com/catalogues-products.php?lang=e&product=1281&catalogue=1§ion=12This is the one I am planning to try,trouble is not many suppliers of Fox gear in Scotland. Another concern is that Carp Anglers tend to use leader/hook links of around one foot maximum in length,hopefully the weight of the fly will turn the line over withoout too many air knots.I fear we may be pioneers in this,nothing ventured and all that.
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Post by greenman on Apr 26, 2010 18:49:56 GMT
Worth a try, I'd be interested to hear how you get on
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Speyducer
Advisory Board
Release to spawn another day
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Post by Speyducer on Apr 26, 2010 21:00:56 GMT
My take on leader strength really relates back to a feature which is believed to hold true for Atlantics , in that they're not generally leader shy - whatever the colour, diameter or length.
That said, I think it is important that the leader at the fly end should be matched to the size & weight of the fly being used, to aid in good turnover, and would agree largely with what Graham has set out.
I certainly wouldn't be keen to use anything less than 8lb bs at any time for salmon, and that would be with the smaller flies in the summer lows.
I would normally fish 15lb maxima green now for most of my fishing (not much fishing done by me in the real summer lows), and then 20lb bs maxima or Yo Zuri for most of the rest of the time (spring & autumn) with larger flies.
It's only in Russia that I fished with > 20lb bs leader, but that does potentially bring its own problems when & if you get snagged on a good rock.
Mike
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