dunkeld
Active Member
Tay Springer April 2010
Posts: 2,946
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Post by dunkeld on Feb 18, 2016 13:25:08 GMT
An earlier post today I made a comment about the perceived lack of fish IMHO.
There are some excellent salmon anglers on this forum and to try to attempt a better all round view, can I ask everyone what they're own personal view is on fish numbers.
There are lots of arguments on various social media and forums that there are less Salmon while others of course are saying the rivers have never been so full.
While my own opinion might not amount to much, I certainly don't think there are more fish or they have changed their behaviour whilst in river or both even?.
Years ago I used to see them launching themselves all over the place in most pools, and when fishing for trout on the Teith, Tay and Tweed in particular, one would be hooking into them on a regular basis on the brandling worm.
So whats the views guys as a light hearted debate?
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mows
Active Member
Posts: 102
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Post by mows on Feb 18, 2016 15:32:46 GMT
This is the NICE forum Kenny. Last thing we want is everyone falling out over fish numbers.
For my tuppense worth, there is a lot less fish in the Northie than there was in the 70s. However there has been and is a good head of fish every year in the Northie for the last 20 years and the counter backs this up. Ive been slagged off in the past for stating there was plenty of fish, when no one was catching anything, and low and behold, when the counter numbers came in, there was plenty fish. Where I go for a walk is unique in the river as you are in an elevated position looking down on known lies, with a holding falls so that you can see all resident and moving fish for over 2 miles and done at least twice a week for the last 10 years, and probably once a week for the 10 years before that.
The Southie seemed to be a bit different. 2 years ago I hardly saw a fish. Last year, there was only one trip when I didn't see any fish, there in fact seemed to be plenty fish, but i didn't get much offers. In 2014 I would have sworn there was no fish in the WestWater, including the morning of the last day. However the counter said there were plenty and I believe a lot were seen in the afternoon of the last day.
For me there is no right answer. Where there are counters, ie Tummel/Northie, things look fine. Where there are no counters things may be fine/they maybe bad, but if they are there and hard to catch, the default position of us anglers are to claim they aren't there. The diving day on the Southie a couple of years ago highlighting this.
Catch numbers seems a very poor way to estimate fish numbers.
The Dee had a terrible season last year with catch numbers. The one day I was there I saw a few fresh fish moving, but wasn't man enough to fish in the gale. That gale lasted a whole month so catch numbers were bound to be down.
Personally, I would have thought the counting of red numbers over certain areas, every year would give a better indication of fish numbers.
Where it isn't viable to install counters on main rivers, its got to be worth considering installing counters an 2 or 3 tribs, to at least give general trends of numbers.
Cheers
Alan
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Post by lunesman on Feb 18, 2016 18:48:53 GMT
I can only speak regarding my local North West rivers. The rivers Lune, Ribble, Kent, Derwent, and Eden have all suffered a drastic fall in numbers of fish entering their systems. Some beats recorded a nil catch for the last season. I know these rivers can not compare to the big Scottish rivers, but their decline is typical of many rivers throught the British Isles.I,personally, dont know what the answer is, but can only hope for an upturn in the comming years.
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dunkeld
Active Member
Tay Springer April 2010
Posts: 2,946
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Post by dunkeld on Feb 18, 2016 18:53:21 GMT
Is there any mileage in the changing behaviour of the salmon in rivers compared to years ago?
Did they show more in the so called good old days due to the amount of fish in the lies? As in being unsettled perhaps?
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mows
Active Member
Posts: 102
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Post by mows on Feb 18, 2016 19:44:22 GMT
Seen lots o fish jumping on the Northie this last year Kenny. In fact the most for a long time. They did tend to be smaller than usual though.
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deedon
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Posts: 320
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Post by deedon on Feb 18, 2016 20:53:04 GMT
I think numbers are falling fairly sharpish on the rivers I fish. The Dee had its 2nd worst rod catch on record and the total catch for the Don was less than 500. Not good but when I went red counting on the Dee red numbers were no worse than average so maybe the fish were there all along but evaded capture? Who knows.
From a personal point of view, I can't complain to much as my catches have remained fairly steady these past 4-5 years. I'm probably spending more time fishing now to be honest but a lot of that time has been spent covering pools I knew were devoid of fish.
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hf
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Posts: 1,807
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Post by hf on Feb 19, 2016 7:31:16 GMT
Have to say my own general impression is less fish. There don't seem to be the great shoals of fish entering the river that I remember 20 years ago. (before I ever started fishing). And even in the last ten years there seems to be less, especially with the grilse run. I know the fish that do come into the river don't stop as they once did so that makes them less visible and possibly gives the impression there are less of them. (But I think there are less).
As for catching them, no change. If they are there they'll take. Just seems that they're not always about.
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Post by sinkingtip on Feb 19, 2016 18:45:11 GMT
I dont think there is any doubt that fish numbers have decreased over the years.
Two obvious examples spring to mind - gone are the shoals of So Esk sea trout that used to inhabit various pools / beats, and the spectacle of 2/3 fish in the air at any given moment on some lower Tay beats come the 'back end'.
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Post by devronmac on Feb 20, 2016 17:49:41 GMT
There is no doubt that there are generally fewer fish and some rivers are faring worse than others. I suppose I am closest to the Spey where I had one of my best seasons ever last year(2015) but then again I did put in a lot of hours. The Spey had a better year last year compared to 2013 and 2014 with 2014 being the worst season since 1952. So although 7700 were caught in the Spey last year ( with a significant number of these being grilse) it was not really a bumper year when compared to 2006 and 2008 when about 11000 were caught. What may be significant for future years is that the return rate is now up to 94% compared to about 80% in 2008. I reckon I have seen a big drop in numbers on the Don and Deveron as well including last year particularly. It will be interesting to see what difference the cessation of the coastal nets have on the poorer performing rivers in the next 3 years. Of course at the moment the nets would not be operating anyway until April so it is probably early days to reach any positive conclusions about numbers this year. So far as the Spey is concerned it seems to be producing about the same or perhaps slightly less after two weeks of the season compared to last year.
As a matter of interest I fished in Iceland last year which had a record season on most of their rivers in 2015 in what is generally a very short season. I caught about a quarter of my annual catch over there in 4 days, fishing only about 5 hours each day. The rivers there do not have anything like the same angling pressure on them as we have here in Scotland.
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herbie29
Active Member
14 lbs spey spring salmon
Posts: 495
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Post by herbie29 on Feb 21, 2016 14:16:11 GMT
There is no doubt that there are generally fewer fish and some rivers are faring worse than others. I suppose I am closest to the Spey where I had one of my best seasons ever last year(2015) but then again I did put in a lot of hours. The Spey had a better year last year compared to 2013 and 2014 with 2014 being the worst season since 1952. So although 7700 were caught in the Spey last year ( with a significant number of these being grilse) it was not really a bumper year when compared to 2006 and 2008 when about 11000 were caught. What may be significant for future years is that the return rate is now up to 94% compared to about 80% in 2008. I reckon I have seen a big drop in numbers on the Don and Deveron as well including last year particularly. It will be interesting to see what difference the cessation of the coastal nets have on the poorer performing rivers in the next 3 years. Of course at the moment the nets would not be operating anyway until April so it is probably early days to reach any positive conclusions about numbers this year. So far as the Spey is concerned it seems to be producing about the same or perhaps slightly less after two weeks of the season compared to last year. As a matter of interest I fished in Iceland last year which had a record season on most of their rivers in 2015 in what is generally a very short season. I caught about a quarter of my annual catch over there in 4 days, fishing only about 5 hours each day. The rivers there do not have anything like the same angling pressure on them as we have here in Scotland. Mel it will be intestine to see what Impact the removal of the nets have on the deveron as I suspect the netting company were not fully declaring there catch. If the deveron catch jumps back up to around the figures declared before the netting recommenced then it could cast doubt on what was declared by the netting company only time will tell.
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Post by stincharlad on Feb 21, 2016 19:15:15 GMT
Here on the Stinchar we definitely don't have the runs of fish we had in the past. When I was a lad in the 70s every pool would be heaving with fish by September. Now while we still get a decent summer run here I truly believe we have lost our autumn run. This last 3 or 4 years there does not appear to be many fish entering the river in what used to be the prime months. Another strange thing is the way they will not stop in the lower river now. It used to be a tourist attraction watching the fish at Ballantrae bridges. Not now. Knockdolian for example used to record between 300 - 400 fish a year with a record of 684 in 1985. In recent years they fail to reach 100. Anyone still not convinced?
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fredo
Active Member
Posts: 1,095
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Post by fredo on Feb 21, 2016 20:32:40 GMT
More salmon in some rivers over here, a lot less in others. Sea trout numbers stable or increasing. It is possible to work out why the changes have occurred based on land use, vermin numbers, management (or lack of) fisheries, poaching and other salt water issues. The most famous fishery, Grimersta, has far less fish running than in the past. It is bordering on a basket case. Garynahine, sharing the same sea loch, had a record year in the recent past. Some sea trout fisheries have had record breaking numbers in the last few years.
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Post by davidturtle on Feb 21, 2016 22:44:32 GMT
I have very little comment to make that adds to the general views expressed. Over the past 40 plus years that I have fished for salmon, then yes, I think that the numbers have showed a distinct decline along with catches but I do wonder if fish behaviour has changed over this period. My perception is that fish do not show as much but maybe "showing" is as a result of numbers of fish in and around a lie, that is aggression from the resident big boys with the weaker members of the population having to take avoidance action and then meeting with further aggression when trying to find another, more convivial, lie.
Watching some underwater webcams is fascinating but I have not seen anything to support my hypothesis.
David
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Post by earnfisher on Feb 22, 2016 16:48:18 GMT
Have been laughed at before but I am of the view that the fish are not showing as in previous seasons. The fly life in the river is not as good as before and it is a long time since I saw the good rises of parr that one would see. The last fortnight of the season our top pool would have had at least 4 fish in the air at any one time. Now hardly a fish showing but I put this down to the gravel silted up and the fish have just headed upstream. Fishers have better gear than in the past but lack the feel for the water. Bob
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