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Post by G Ritchie on Jan 31, 2008 20:00:41 GMT
Looking at the types and sizes of flies used for sea trout in different parts of the country there seems to be a large variation between different rivers and regions. On the Deveron my standard setup is a full floating line with a 10ft leader and two flies, normally small doubles sizes 10 down to 14. After midnight if things go quiet I would then try a sinktip with a larger fly of about 1 to 1 1/2 inches in length, this usually only produces the occasional fish, although they tend to be larger. I notice that on some Welsh rivers the standard night time tactics seem to be large snake flies of 3 inches or more on sinking lines or large surface lures on floaters. Why do you think there is this variation? Does it depend on the type of feeding the sea trout did at sea, they tend not to migrate too far in most cases. Are there environmental factors to consider, different types of rivers. Does the depth of the pool you are fishing have a bearing. Could there be slight genetic differences between different sea trout populations. Or do we just tend to follow local traditions in our fly choice and tactics and methods used elsewhere would be just as successful if we gave them a full and fair trial?
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lamson
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Post by lamson on Jan 31, 2008 20:36:29 GMT
In my experience the appropriate fly size as in salmon fishing depends on the speed of the river, the fly has to look right for the speed it is travelling at. A strange one ,but I also find that even when it is slow ,a large pool often responds well to a large fly, ( snake territory) The references that Graham makes in respect of Welsh rivers .are I suspect in relation to the larger ones. On our small streams , in low water night conditons .75-1" is about right stepping up to 1.5 -2" as the night wears on. Proximity to the sea appears relevant , smaller fly as you go up stream.
Steve
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conwyrod
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Autumn on the Conwy
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Post by conwyrod on Jan 31, 2008 20:44:03 GMT
You're right Graham, there does seem to be a big variation in fly sizes used for sea trout in different rivers.
I fish the Elwy, which is quite a small river, and the Conwy which is a medium size river - about 75% the size of the upper Tweed.
My standard fly for night fishing on both rivers is a butcher variant tied on a size 10 long shank trout hook. This fly is usually on my dropper from the start of the season 'til the end, and it accounts for well over 50% of the fish I catch.
I seldom go bigger than size 10 (except on highish water) on the Elwy because the good sea trout holding pools are deepish with little current. A bigger fly doesn't seem to work well on these smallish pools - I think a big fly looks too conspicuous to sea trout in small pools, in clear low water conditions, even if you work the fly.
On the Conwy, I'm happy to use size 4,6,7 or 8 flies on the point until after midnight, and when things go quiet I'll try 2-3" snake flies, tubes, tandems etc fished deeper, and occasionally a surface lure.
I think the bigger flies work well on the Conwy because there is generally more current to work the flies, and the pools are bigger. Having said that, I've caught sea trout on the Conwy on size 14 trebles, but only in very low water.
As lamson once put it, a 3-piece suite makes a small room look cramped, but it looks fine in a big room - if you see what I mean! ;D
There are exceptions to every rule, and I have heard of snake flies being used successfully on smallish South Wales rivers - but I wonder if that is in highish water only. Perhaps Daz can let us know.
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Post by ducktip1 on Jan 31, 2008 21:35:45 GMT
I find our Sea-Trout like Black and Silver, anything from a size12 Crow and Silver Trout fly to a size10 double Stoat's Tail, and most fish take at the back end of the pools day and night. A size 10 Cascade took a fish over 13lb the other year ( not by me ) on a dropping Summer spate. But I always like to try the Black and Silver fly, maybe it's just me but they seem to work.
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Post by robmason on Jan 31, 2008 22:49:37 GMT
On the Teign I had alot of success last season with black tubes, 1- 1 1/2". The water does carry a fair bit of colour even at the best of times. Just doesn't seem right to fish anything smaller. On a floater from lights out to 2am or so. As long as fish are sploshing about they go for it every time!
A fast stripped muddler has the schoolies going crazy.
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Post by sinkingtip on Feb 1, 2008 10:05:01 GMT
I think Graham's last sentence sums it up for me - "do we just tend to follow local traditions in our fly choice and tactics and methods used elsewhere would be just as successful if we gave them a full and fair trial" ? ...... probably, IMO. As in salmon fishing, if fishing a new river or regional area, the FIRST thing we would do is seek local advice. If the advice is to fish some form of tandem lure on a sunk line then, in all probability, that is what we will try ...... first !. Ditto a surface or wake contraption. Again, it is a confidence thing IMO - "if the locals employ certain tactics and catch .... then I should follow suit". I say "follow suit" but whether or not you do is entirely up to you and I daresay whatever methods you choose it will probably result in at least some sport from these curious and willing wee silver bullets. Yes, I agree that the success rates of certain 'lures' could be directly linked to 'local' esturial food supplies. On the other hand, if that were to be proven then you could understand why the 'free thinking radical' fisher might decide to present something completely different - a bit like you or I being solely fed on a diet of mince and tattie's then one day the opportunity comes along to get in aboot a Pot Noodle. Don't know - purely a random thought. We are reliably informed via the writings of demi-god's such as Falkus that seat trout are extremely prone to very slight changes (more so than salmon apparently) in temperature and / or atmospheric conditions therefore the idea of going bigger / smaller or fishing deeper / shallower at certain stages of the night would make complete sense to me ..... a lack of 'action' will usually inform you when it is time for a change. A strange comparison I know, but I often think of sea trout as similar to bairns inasmuch as they need to be kept 'entertained' due to having a relatively short attention span IMHO. I recall many years ago watching a shoal of sea trout react to an upstream mepp being fished by a friend up and into the tail of the Garden Pool at Insewan on the South Esk. The first few casts got a definite reaction from the shoal (which I estimated to contain 30 + fish) resulting in 5/6 fish adopting a 'hot pursuit' approach ..... the next cast 3 followed - but much more half heartedly - followed by 2 until they showed no interest whatsoever. At this point my partner in 'crime' switched over to a small Quill Minnow whereupon their interest was instantly rekindled ........ for about 5 casts. A small Krill was then tried with exactly the same results. I have to point out that this heinous activity was undertaken at first light after a productive all nighter with the flee - and for 'research' purposes only. What I gleaned from this particular observation, and subsequently employed into my nocturnal fly fishing, was that IF they are not coming freely to your favourite wee Stoats Tail fished in the conventional "across, doon and aroond" manner and you KNOW there are fish in the pool then assume that some form of fish boredom or lethargy has set in and maybe we just need a new 'game'. On the subject of flees, for the waters I fish, my boxes predominately contain variations on the Silver Stoats Tail ranging from size 14 micro's to 1 1/2" lures / tubes (including Collie Dog's which I have always considered to be basically a long winged Stoat) with a slight smattering of silver bodied Dunkeld's or Peter Ross variants if there is a bit of colour in the water. Silver Invicta's also feature as do variations on Falkus's 'Demon' lure (Stoats Tail variant) if I feel the situation dictates. STip
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Post by Silver Stoat on Feb 1, 2008 17:29:50 GMT
I have often wondered why so many people use small flies after dark, particularly singles. A lot of the books about Seatrout fishing were written before tube flies were adopted so maybe this more of a tradition thing (like the use of coloured dressings after dark) rather than representing a need for different techniques for different areas/rivers. I have never had great success with small flies at night on my local river and seldom use anything smaller than a 1” tube after it gets really dark.
During the day I use small sizes – 14 and 12 (singles, doubles and ED style trebles) or maybe a 10 if there is some colour in the water and although the occasional fish might be caught on larger flies, this is more likely to happen late in the season (fishing for Salmon) when the cock Seatrout become more aggressive. These are fished on looped on sink tips of various lengths or the full floater depending on the state of the water.
When the light starts to fade but before ‘the lights’ I will move up to a sparsely dressed small tube and have found the ultra slim stainless tube (1-1 ¼”) works very well for this intermediate light phase.
All of the above refers to fishing the runs between pools as I only fish the pools after ‘the lights’. Just to add some more confusion to this topic, I have found the exact opposite to conwyrod and prefer to slowly drift a largish tube though the smaller pools and will try different levels of dressing before I change sizes. I think sinkingtip has a point about the short attention span (although I don’t think that is exactly what is happening) and it’s often a useful ploy to engage in shock tactics by making a radical change to the type/size of lure and/or the speed it is fished.
Like the majority, my night-time fly box contains mainly black and silver - silver stoats (tubes) - along with a few others tied using various combinations of black and white (with and without some glitter) plus a couple of deer hair surface lures and a few, heavily dressed, light plastic tubes for fishing in the surface film.
I did spend some time using snakes but these seemed to be no more effective than big tubes (up to 2”) and, as they are more time consuming to tie and thus represent a greater loss when ‘taken’ by the trees on the opposite bank, I no longer bother with them.
Dave.
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conwyrod
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Autumn on the Conwy
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Post by conwyrod on Feb 1, 2008 21:32:55 GMT
What I gleaned from this particular observation, and subsequently employed into my nocturnal fly fishing, was that IF they are not coming freely to your favourite wee Stoats Tail fished in the conventional "across, doon and aroond" manner and you KNOW there are fish in the pool then assume that some form of fish boredom or lethargy has set in and maybe we just need a new 'game'. STip Good observation Tippy - I agree, which is why I tend to change my tail fly after fishing through a pool and getting no response. I'll change to a bigger or smaller fly depending on the conditions, or from a single hook to a tube or snake, just to show them something different.
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conwyrod
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Post by conwyrod on Feb 1, 2008 21:50:37 GMT
Just to add some more confusion to this topic, I have found the exact opposite to conwyrod and prefer to slowly drift a largish tube though the smaller pools and will try different levels of dressing before I change sizes. Dave. Dave, I suppose this proves there are no firm rules in fishing, and that fresh sea trout aren't too fussy about fly size!
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DAZ
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Post by DAZ on Feb 3, 2008 0:05:15 GMT
There are exceptions to every rule, and I have heard of snake flies being used successfully on smallish South Wales rivers - but I wonder if that is in highish water only. Perhaps Daz can let us know. Hi John. It's not just high water John.They are used in all conditions,from the highest water,to lowest of summer lows.I don't use them myself these days for similar reasons to Dave (Silverstoat).I much prefer a Plastic tube as a sub! for snakes....Even though I took my biggest fish last year on a snake. Does it depend on the type of feeding the sea trout did at sea, I would have thought their diet would consist of very Similar food items right round the coast of the British Isle's ?.... Are there environmental factors to consider, different types of rivers. With regards to what Graham ?.....What are your thoughts ?. . Could there be slight genetic differences between different sea trout populations. This a possibility ?. Or do we just tend to follow local traditions in our fly choice and tactics and methods used elsewhere would be just as successful if we gave them a full and fair trial? For me!...This one is very true.Lots of anglers do tend to stick with tradition,and shy away from experimentation. Tight lines. DAZ.
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severnfisher
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The Severn Valley in spring
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Post by severnfisher on Feb 3, 2008 19:47:13 GMT
Graham,
Do many people try Welsh tactics in your area?
Could the differences be anything to do with the fact northern scotland has shorter and lighter summer nights?
Tom
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Post by sinkingtip on Feb 3, 2008 20:44:46 GMT
Hi Tom - in answer to the first part of your question and as someone who fishes in Graham's geographical area I would reckon that the whole gamut of sea trout tactics are employed here at some time or another - wee doubles to big tandems ........ wake lures, slow, deep, stripped etc...... no bait crime though. Having said that, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "Welsh tactics" so please excuse my ignorance. Perhaps one of the major differences up these here parts is that the sea trout season, for fish in their PRIME, can be relatively short. Certainly on the River South Esk, which is recognised as a major east coast s/t fishery, the season can be a short as 6 weeks in real terms ie. the first week in June to the end of July top's. By the end of July most of the fish are starting to colour up fast and are past their very best. There is no recognised 'late' (Sept / Oct) run of fresh sea trout on the South Esk which is quite surprising as its sister river the North Esk can see some fresh s/t much later in the season albeit not to any great extent. Likewise, the River Earn, which - as the crow fly's - aint too far away can get fresh, off the tide, sea trout right up to the end of their season at the end of October. Another thing 'we' tend not to do is fish for them during the day unless the river levels rule out 'proper' night time activities which, as you say, can be very short in duration ...... some nights it don't even get dark ! regards STip
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Post by G Ritchie on Feb 3, 2008 21:02:29 GMT
I have tried them with mixed results. The larger fly on a sunk line has produced a few fish, often larger than average as well. I can get interest to the surface lure but very few hook ups. Shorter nights, which don't tend to get as dark as further south may be a factor in the success of smaller flies. Daz, by environmental factors, I was thinking does the size of the river, depth of the river, amount of tree cover alongside the pools, whether the river is east or west flowing, time of year, distance from the sea etc, have any bearing on the size of fly we use. The use of fairly small flies for night fishing for sea trout seems to be fairly widespread up this way from small rivers such as the Ugie, through medium rivers like the Deveron to larger rivers like the Dee and Spey. Most of these rivers tend to be fairly shallow, at least in the areas where sea trout tend to be targeted. The pools tend to be fairly open with not too much heavy tree cover and they tend to flow in an easterly or north easterly direction, so the last glow of light in the sky is generally in an upstream direction, which may make the flies more visible to the fish than on tree lined westerly flowing rivers. I have noticed that the further upstream from the sea, or later in the season it is, smaller flies tend to be more successful. I would often go up a size or two if fishing a beat a couple of miles above the tide, compared to one 20 miles upstream.
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Post by John Gray on Feb 3, 2008 21:17:41 GMT
..... By the end of July most of the fish are starting to colour up fast and are past their very best. There is no recognised 'late' (Sept / Oct) run of fresh sea trout on the South Esk which is quite surprising as its sister river the North Esk can see some fresh s/t much later in the season albeit not to any great extent. Likewise, the River Earn, which - as the crow fly's - aint too far away can get fresh, off the tide, sea trout right up to the end of their season at the end of October. ST, This has not been my experience fishing the Earn at Crieff, where the main sea trout run occurs, as on the South Esk, during June and July. I cannot recall having caught a sea trout in prime condition, fresh from the sea, at Crieff any later than August. For this reason, and in the interest of conservation generally, the Crieff Club has now ruled that all sea trout caught after the end of August should be returned. The graph below shows the pattern of sea trout catches on the Earn: In my experience, such a pattern is typical of many Scottish sea trout rivers, with the best specimens generally being taken earlier in the season. Many of the sea trout recorded for September and October, when most of the fishing effort on the Earn is concentrated, will be well past their best and taken incidentally by salmon fishers on fly, worm or spinner. On the subject of flies, those of the kind shown below have worked well enough for me on a variety of rivers, including the Earn, Spey, Allan, Border Esk and even the Cothi.
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severnfisher
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The Severn Valley in spring
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Post by severnfisher on Feb 3, 2008 21:24:02 GMT
Having said that, I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "Welsh tactics" so please excuse my ignorance. Hi ST. Welsh tactics is just my shorthand. I mean starting off with things like Dave describes and being prepared to go substantially larger as the evening progresses (obviously without ruling out using small flies). Or let me put it another way... If you did at tackle inspection at dusk on the tywi in early June over half the anglers would probably have something like a 1 1/2 inch aluminium tube on an intermediate line. Tom
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Post by neptune on Apr 11, 2008 20:06:37 GMT
ive just been tying some sea trout flees i decided to tie some peter ross tied on a #14 double, also some teal blue & silver. i was tying a stoats tail & somehow managed to use green instead of yellow (sober at the time : for the tail. im not sure if this will work for st but ill give it a go & see how it performs just wondering if anyone has had any luck with the colours
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Post by salmonking on Apr 11, 2008 20:11:33 GMT
I believe Alan caught a dead mussel erlier this week using that very flee,,, ;D
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conwyrod
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Autumn on the Conwy
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Post by conwyrod on Apr 11, 2008 20:18:18 GMT
Should be fine Neptune, in fact you might have discovered a new killer fly. ;D
Size 14 is very small for sea trout, in Wales anyway, I'd only go that small in daylight or very low water at night.
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Post by neptune on Apr 11, 2008 20:29:41 GMT
hope its not a muscle killer flee
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hornet
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Post by hornet on Apr 11, 2008 20:44:21 GMT
Silver stoats tail caught all my sea trout last season. I will be using the Stoats and maybe a couple of new surface wake flees this season.
Cheers
Hornet
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