robbie
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Post by robbie on Nov 14, 2007 18:03:00 GMT
If using braded line while spinning surely the problems of line twist are reduced significantly. What type of line do most people use and why? and do you use swivels, if so are they BB Swivels
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Post by sinkingtip on Nov 14, 2007 21:24:18 GMT
If using braded line while spinning surely the problems of line twist are reduced significantly.What type of line do most people use and why? and do you use swivels, if so are they BB Swivels Hi robbie - Not a good night to start a thread on BB swivel's what with the "Our Countryside" thread going down a ton (good thread and bound to provoke a diversity of opinion ...... the OC thread that is Anyhoo - back tae this canny wee threed. DO braided terelene lines reduce line kink / twist ?? It's a genuine question as all of my spinning is done with either Maxi - mia or Stren. When I say "all of my spinning" I am talking about early season high water Tay stuff (January - March). Kit wise - an ancient but much loved ABU Syncro multiplier fished off an equally ancient and battle scarred 10' 8" Multispin. I have used the braided stuff when given the occasional use of a reel that contained it but never REALLY found it to be 'better' or less inclined to kink. There is just something about it that bothers me and, apart from anything, I always felt that the knots were not as secure as they would be with nylon - but that's me. As for BB swivels, are we talking the "Original BB Swivel" here - the pound a pop shot's - or the el cheapo imposter's at a shilling a tonne ? I think that you need to use the 'originals' if you are using a SPINNING lure as opposed to a WOBBLER. Spinning lures, as defined within my arsenal, are Devon Minnow's and Flying C' s (end of) and as they are 'spinner's' they need the best quality swivel available - the BB Original. Wobbler's - Toby's, Spoons, Rapala's, Plug's ........ IMO you can get away with the cheaper BB style swivel or bog standard barrel's as these types of lure are less inclined to 'spin' and more inclined to 'wobble' on a reasonably even keel and so the chances of kink are immediately reduced. There ye go ! ........... STip
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Post by Roobarb on Nov 15, 2007 0:40:42 GMT
The only swivel worth using is the original Sharpes BB swivel. DO braided terelene lines reduce line kink / twist ?? It's a genuine question as all of my spinning is done with either Maxi - mia or Stren. I have used the braided stuff when given the occasional use of a reel that contained it but never REALLY found it to be 'better' or less inclined to kink. STip It’s not so much that they reduce amount of line twist but that a twisted braid behaves so differently to a twisted mono. Any mono is in effect a thin solid bar and you can only put so much twist into it. The only way the twist can unwind is if one end of the line is free, but if it can’t “get out” of the end because there is a spinner at that end sending more twist up the line (on top of the twist that all fixed spool reels put in line anyway) then it’s only escape is to twist back on it’s self kinking the line. Braid being made up of many strands is not solid and does not try to unwind when it gets a twist in it. It just remains limp where mono goes all springy. Take a foot of mono and holding it taught put a dozen twists in it, as soon as you take the tension off it (but still holding the ends) it will kink and twist around it’s self. Try the same with braid and you will find you can stay there twisting it all night (unless you have something better to do ) before it starts to kink. Some of the very fine soft braids aren’t suitable for spinning, Berkley whiplash for instance, I don’t really know why but it does seem to kink and misbehave. Umm… misbehave, kink, whiplash Any form of mono as a mainline for spinning belongs in the last century! Andy
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Post by sinkingtip on Nov 15, 2007 8:33:30 GMT
Hi Exerod - good comment, informative and well observed as always but, with respect, I shall be retaining my membership of the 'Flintstone' school of main-line preference and stick with monofil as I have very, very seldom suffered from 'line kink' when spinning with such - ever ! Call me lucky .... call me skillful ..... call me foolish (either of the first two options preferred) but, at least for the remainder of this century, I shall continue to happily walk with the dinosaurs ...... and robbie. ;D As a slight aside, I believe that when spinning with minnows it is advisable to consciously fish with both 'left handed' and 'right handed' fins alternately as this practice will further reduce the possibility of serious line kink. yours aye STip
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Post by Roobarb on Nov 15, 2007 13:17:52 GMT
Hi Exerod - good comment, informative and well observed as always but, Very kind of you to say so, I would have been happy with "nerdy" as a summing up of my post I expect the difference in our experience of twist is down to the way we fish. You I imagine are fishing long casts downstream with the multiplier and fishing the lure slowly. Whereas I am making hundreds of short casts (5 to 20 yards) upstream with a fixed spool (mangle!) and winding like bloody hell. You also have the mythical "opposite minnow birl effect" on your side Andy
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Speyducer
Advisory Board
Release to spawn another day
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Post by Speyducer on Nov 20, 2007 22:07:05 GMT
I would always use the BB swivels - no point in skimping on this, the same as on quality monofil, quality braid, quality hooks etc.
As I haven't spun for salmon in some time, I would recommend these BB swivels for those who would fish this way.
I had used these swivels also for worm and shrimp fishing too, and should that type of fishing be done again, I would go back to the same.
Mike
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salmondan
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Post by salmondan on Nov 27, 2007 20:11:59 GMT
One trick I was shown earlier in the season was to use two swivels One right next to the lure and one about 2 to 3 feet up the line. Is this common? and could that help to reduce line kink?
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robbie
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Post by robbie on Nov 27, 2007 20:23:31 GMT
I don't think any of my old Pike fishing buddies use mono any more for lure fishing. To a man they are using braid. No line twist, incredibly low diameter to breaking strain (30lb braid is equivilent to about 10lb mono) it floats, you can feel every move the lure is making and so can ensure you are fishing it properly. It also does not deteriorate in daylight, so can last several seasons The one proviso is to set the clutch lighter than usual against a sudden lunge from the fish, Braid is not forgiving and has no stretch.
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djb
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Post by djb on Nov 27, 2007 20:28:39 GMT
Salmondan,
I use 2 BB swivels but for flying c's and tobys etc use them close together 2-3 inches (as advised by WTG/Salmonnut and a couple of the other ghillies on the Tay).
BB swivel at end of line then 2-3 inches of mono to another swivel and then 6-12 inches onto chosen lure. I also change the swivel on the lure for a BB one as well. (so thats 3 in total)
For Devons - I have about a foot or so between the 2 BB's and tie a bouncing betty from the top one.
I couldnt get any Sharpes BB's at one point earlier this year and found "reasonable" replacements from Sportfish. I have since stockpiled more of the "original" when they became available again. I tend to buy 2 or 3 packets everytime I pop into a tackle shop for something.
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djb
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Post by djb on Nov 27, 2007 20:35:15 GMT
I use 20lb Maxima Chameleon on my fixed spool reel but have braid on my multiplier.
All the ghillies I fished with at the back end when harling used braid on all the harling rods with multipliers (easier to figure out the lengths of line out at the back of the boat and the depth that the lures are fishing)
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salmondan
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Post by salmondan on Nov 27, 2007 20:41:51 GMT
Salmondan, I use 2 BB swivels but for flying c's and tobys etc use them close together 2-3 inches (as advised by WTG/Salmonnut and a couple of the other ghillies on the Tay). BB swivel at end of line then 2-3 inches of mono to another swivel and then 6-12 inches onto chosen lure. I also change the swivel on the lure for a BB one as well. For Devons - I have about a foot or so between the 2 BB's and tie a bouncing betty from the top one. I couldnt get any Sharpes BB's at one point earlier this year and found "reasonable" replacements from Sportfish. I have since stockpiled more of the "original" when they became available again. I tend to buy 2 or 3 packets everytime I pop into a tackle shop for something. Many thanks for a comprehensive reply Now I have another question Why do they need to be close together for FCs/ tobys and further apart for Devons?
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djb
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Post by djb on Nov 27, 2007 21:08:57 GMT
Salmondan, I was advised that the short distance was better for the heavier metalwork as long distances between the swivels could still cause kink and wasn't as strong. I used this set-up and had no problems casting or with breakages - it was also easy to change lures - just clip the line at the second swivel and leave the othe bit of line attached to the lure. For Devons (mine are light floaters - made by Salmonnut) your are trying to fish it like the worm essentially so you need to use a suitable bouncing betty bomb (the round ones are best) to get the lure down - you need to try and figure out which weight to use. There is a better explanation from Salmonnut who told me how to set-up the various spinning lures on the other forum here. I found his advice spot on... www.salmonfishingforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120Hope this helps
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djb
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Post by djb on Nov 27, 2007 21:30:52 GMT
I should add the the technique I was taught to use with the heavy metalwork was:- spinning from the boat (generally much deeper and slower water):- - cast out upstream let the lure go down for a few secs and then wind like hell for 4 or 5 turns of the handle - stop very briefly and then repeat i.e. give the lure a "wobble" - work round 180 degrees i.e. if you are facing off the back of the boat, start of to your left or right (imagine that is 0 degrees on a protractor) and then work you way round to the opposite side i.e. 180 degrees (I thnk that makes sense!!) Obviously you will get some movement with the current. All the takes I have seen have actually been close to the boat and also seen several follows - very exciting. from the bank (potentially faster flow) :- cast upstream let the lure go down briefly and then wind as above the lure will also come round in the current like the fly. Wind back in to about a rods lenght away from your feet - again I have seen several close in follows and had 4 brief takes (then lost due to striking too early) like this. I sort of use the same approac as using the fly. I also use a plastic bead on the line before the first bb swivel (slightly bigger diameter than the end tip on the rod) - stops the swivel wearing the tip ring and having to mess about between casts. With the Devon I have only ever used off the bank in deep pools. Cast out upstream and wait until you feel the weight hit the bottom then wind but not quite so fast as above. Also you can "trot" ala worm style.. Sound like a "cutlery expert"...I'm not but just had some excellent advice when I started - wish I had had the same when I started out with the flee 30 years ago - wouldnt have so many bad habits now!!
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Post by sinkingtip on Nov 27, 2007 23:37:51 GMT
One trick I was shown earlier in the season was to use two swivels One right next to the lure and one about 2 to 3 feet up the line. Is this common? and could that help to reduce line kink? Hi dan - if they are Sharpes Original BB's then one should suffice even for the sprightliest of devon minnow's .... IMO. 3 - 4' up from the terminal is where I would stick it. Whats the point of losing two expensive swivels when you need only lose one ? Also - the more 'connections' you have, the more knots you have to worry about when salmo comes a' calling - keep it simple. regards STip
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djb
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Post by djb on Nov 28, 2007 10:57:51 GMT
STip
Do you use any form of weight when fishing the Devon?
thanks
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Post by sinkingtip on Nov 28, 2007 12:04:04 GMT
Hi JSA - just done something pretty radical (for me anyhow ) and copied over this post of mine from the 'old' forum. If / when I spin it is usually only in conditions that warrant it and only for a very short period Jan-March (Tay). The following diatribe should answer your question. regards STip THE RIG : Don't buy Bouncing Betty's from a tackle dealer . They usually come come in packs of three 'standard' weights and have the lead 'welded' into the 'tube' (I wonder why ) thus preventing removal and the option to change the weight easily depending on the pool (or part of the pool) that you happen to be fishing - not too mention costing a small fortune . Kercock mentioned in an earlier post that getting the correct weight was crucial - I agree totally !!. As with ANY method - fly or spin - presentation ( depth, pace) is paramount....as we all know. Get clear beer kit tubing (50 pence for a hundred yards from any home brew shop - a slight exaggeration I know but compare the cost to shop bought Betty's!!) - cut into approx 3" lengths - stick a dod of clear epoxy resin ( 75 pence a gallon !!), or similar, into the 'top' end into which you stick a bog standard barrel swivel (below the barrel otherwise you will restrict 'articulation') - leave to dry and harden - Bob's yer uncle - bouncing Betty's at a fraction of the cost !!. Now the difficult bit... get someone you know who is adept at such things to make you moulds in various lengths and to create a range of weights then melt down some lead which is easily, and cheaply, got from 'scrappy's'. The moulds can be long and thin or with a thin 'tip' bulked out for weight underneath. By "thin" I mean fractionally bigger in diameter than the inside diameter of the tubing - about 1/4" as a ball park size. I personally prefer long thin 'sticks' of lead as they can be trimmed / shortened bankside via a small pair of pliers to achieve the 'perfect' weight for the water / flow conditions. The 'long thin' lead is also infinitely easier to 'work' loose should you get stuck on the bottom. Apropos of this, another reason that the 'welded' shop bought Betty's are bad news is that should you get 'stuck' the lead wont pull away resulting in (probably) the loss of the entire 'rig' !!. The lead should be inserted into the tubing no more than about 3/8" to ensure that ,should you become really stuck, the lead will pull away from the tubing again ensuring that this is all you lose. Very seldom have I known the minnow to be the cause of snagging - thats one of the benefits of using this particular method unlike weighted minnows which, in my case, were all sold at a car boot sale the day I realsied I had no further use for them and that there was a far superior alternative. Finally, the 'Betty' is threaded through the eye of the 'Betty' swivel above the mainline swivel which, incidentally should always be a quality BB swivel as the minnow 'burls' and if you don't use a BB then stand back and wait for the line kink explosion !! What you now have is a 'running' lead 'rig' (the exact same rig is also excellent form worm fishing - so I am told !!) The addition of a BB swivel applies to 'burling' lures only (Minnows and Flying C's). Toby's, Rapalla's, Kosters, Blair's are all 'wobblers' and not 'burlers' and therefore DONT need an expensive BB swivel attatched....a bog standard barrel swivel will do....I digress.......a leader of about 3-4' below the BB swivel is ample and, of course, a tad lighter in breaking strain eg. mainline 18lb test and leader 15lb. TECHNIQUE : Choose what feels like the correct weight for the pool. Have in your pocket a couple of leads that are lighter and a couple that are heavier. Remember - and apologies to the more experienced of you who may read this for stating the obvious....novices my not have realised this yet.....that you can achieve more or less depth NOT by adjusting your weight but by adjusting the ANGLE of your cast eg. a more 'square'cast will sink quicker than a cast put out at an acute angle downstream (same rules apply to fly). You should feel the lead making 'contact' with the river bed a nano second, or three, after 'splashdown' and you should continue to 'feel' the bottom as the minnow arc's towards your bank or to a point where you have gone through the 'taking strip' - (an imaginary and variable width 'corridor' within the river where, depending on water height and speed of current, fish are likely to be - your ability to 'read' water will be tested here and your ghillie will advise accordingly!!. IF you do not achieve a decent 'arc run' and that the lead is making too 'thick' a contact with the river bed then either reduce your weight of lead (impossible with commercially manufactured Betty's without a great deal of hassle) OR adjust the angle of cast. THE MAJOR BENEFIT : We have all read about spring spinning tactics being based around the adage of "slow and deep"...yes?. Having sussed out the 'correct' weight of lead for your Betty rig you will find that as the minnow gradually 'bounces' its way back in towards your bank that it will occasionally stop on the bottom - it has NOT snagged...it has just stopped temporarily (maybe the lead is sitting just behind a small stone or whatever) - LEAVE IT THERE for a few seconds then just gently raise your rod tip sharply and the lead will move over / around the 'obstruction' and continue to trundle around the 'arc' for a few more feet before stopping again - LEAVE IT - repeat this process until your lead has genuinely traveled as far as it will go. At this point leave it on the 'dangle' for at least 30 seconds before you retrieve. WHY ?? .....because when your lead has temporarily 'stopped' the minnow is burling away in a 'contented' manner - how much "slower" can you get than stationary !!?? . Remember, spring fish are less inclined to travel any great distance in order to intercept your lure - I believe that the countless angling scribes who have influenced our thoughts and learning curves over the decades are correct on this one and that you really do have to make it 'easy' for the the fish to "tak a hud" of the lure. It makes sense to me and has produced many fish over the years - I hope that it might be productive for you also .
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djb
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Post by djb on Nov 28, 2007 12:40:56 GMT
STip,
good article thanks...I didn't have any problems with losing swivels lost a couple of lures allright but agreed if the whole lot went - bl88dy expensive!
It was Dennis/Gary at Kercock who suggested I add a spinning rod and some metalwork to my armoury as without it, certain conditions/beats on the Tay would be difficult/unfishable with flee only.
Martin at U Kinnaird does something similar for bouncing bettys using I think they were blood smaple tubes or the type of tube you get in garden centres for bringing on plant cuttings...I managed to find the "Bomb" type which are more environmentally friendly than the lead ones at Fawcetts - £10 for 12 different sizes/weights..
I used at the backend only on Upper Kinnaird and Dunkeld House - both off the boat but balanced the days with time on the flee as well.
I did a couple of hours spinning off the bank on the last day at Newtyle but we were trying everything under the sun to land a fish after a blank week!!
I managed to find some BB swivels (probably made in China) from Sportfish which were cheaper than the Sharpes so will try what you suggest for Toby's etc next year using these intead of the Sharpes. £1.99 for 10
I will do some days on these U Kinnaird and Dunkeld from the boat again next year and may do some days on Loch Tay just for a change but otherwise I will be sticking to the flee....been tying like mad ready for the start of the season.. ;D
That said I thouroughly enjoyed it and had several takes/lost and follows into the boat etc which were exciting and interesting to watch - made me think more about how the flee shoudl be moving in the water...
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salmondan
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Post by salmondan on Nov 28, 2007 12:45:31 GMT
Whats the point of losing two expensive swivels when you need only lose one ? Would it help to have a lighter line between the swivel and mainline (ie 30lb main line and 15lb or 20lb "tip")? That way when any snags or breakages occur the line breaks below the swivel so only the lure is lost. Some excellent points made and advice given so far chaps, ta. EDIT: D'oh, just seen 'Tip's post above, that answers my Q then
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Post by sinkingtip on Nov 28, 2007 13:44:38 GMT
Whats the point of losing two expensive swivels when you need only lose one ? Would it help to have a lighter line between the swivel and mainline (ie 30lb main line and 15lb or 20lb "tip")? That way when any snags or breakages occur the line breaks below the swivel so only the lure is lost. Some excellent points made and advice given so far chaps, ta. EDIT: D'oh, just seen 'Tip's post above, that answers my Q then Hi dan - surprised you even had to ask that Hi JSA - Dennis, Gary, Martin .... all these guys are experienced and knowledgeable fishers and good to be around. The fact is, that there are numerous variations on spinning / bait 'rigs' - some better than others, some less complicated - some more. Being a simplistic kind of geezer one of the great appeals for me in salmon fishing is how SIMPLE and MINIMAL the kit required should be ...... small box of flees (max 6), spool of nylon, forceps, snips and rod ...... if spinning, a couple of tobies, one flying C (optional), a couple of floating devons, swivels, leader material, 3 'betty' tubes and a range weights as described above - all of which can fit unobtrusively into a reasonable sized pocket. This will free up your remaining pockets for snout + lighter, sweeties, juice and, perhaps, a nude book and / or Norris's latest catalogue depending on your mood at the time. Sorry guy's - gone off topic there a wee bit Keep it simple !
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djb
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Post by djb on Nov 28, 2007 14:00:49 GMT
STip, couldnt agree more - after accumulating a bag full of "crap" i.e. stuff you dont ever use or need in a short space of time - moving rapidly to the "travel light" school of thought. Similar list to you although have not bothered with any "reading material" - would add a hip flask to the list though.. ;D Sound like another thread is in order - How much stuff is in you tackle bag that you dont use?
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