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Post by buntinbee on Oct 21, 2007 15:25:01 GMT
Having read through the various forums that have come on the scene on salmon fishing, one thing they all have in common is the condescending attitude that a lot of participants show for spinning.
First of all let me point out that I do most of my fishing on hard fished association water, and secondly I do not have an axe to grind on whether I catch fish on the fly or spinning. My own personal ratio is probably in the region of 50/50 and has been for the last 15 years or so. Prior to that I viewed fly caught fish as something special, something that happened on the best of beats, caught mainly by upper echelon of the fishing fraternity, both money wise and skill wise. I have now learned otherwise. However, every time the subject comes up on forums, I see a great swathe of pretentious, elitist and quite frankly, snobbishly ignorant people wading into the pool, causing unwarranted waves. Why can these people not realise that there is no BETTER way only DIFFERENT ways of catching salmon. I have no problem with anyone having a self imposed fly only restriction but why should they impose their preferences on anyone else?
"Would you like a drink? What?_Beer? Oh dear me no, that's no good at all. It needs to be gin and tonic. You see that's what I drink so you must have the same"
As I mentioned before, I catch about 50% of my salmon on the fly and the other 50% are caught spinning. I go fishing to catch salmon and fish with what I believe will give me the best chance on the day within the rules. It is one thing fishing on a bit of top class water which has a good stock of fish and is limited to three rods, another thing entirely sharing your beat with twenty other people and wondering if there are any salmon at all in the water. I know that there are people who say that catching the fish is not important, it is the surroundings, the wildlife, the sound of the river and satisfaction of putting out a perfectly executed spey cast which make the day, and that catching a salmon is just a bonus. To these people I would ask if they would go fishing knowing that there were no salmon in the river – the only thing they would be sacrificing is the chance of a bonus fish. No, I wouldn’t bother going fishing without at least a chance of a salmon either. As I said, I go fishing to catch salmon first and foremost.
I think we should ask ourselves a few questions on whether it is better, or more skillful to catch a salmon on the fly or the spinner. Is it more skilful to catch a salmon on the fly or the spinner? Given that at least 90% of fly caught salmon which I have witnessed are caught on a floating line, cast at 45 degrees to the stream, allowing the fly to swing round with the occasional mend to slow or speed the progress. I would say that there is not a huge amount of skill involved in the catching of 90% of fly caught fish. Bearing in mind the huge improvements in today’s spey taper fly lines and carbon rods, it is well within the grasp of the average fisher to be able to throw at least 25 yards within a day of picking up a rod. In the hands of a competent caster, I would seriously doubt if a spinner could be cast much further than the fly. Even if your fly line lands in a crumpled heap, how many seconds is it before the current finishes the job for you and your fly is fishing in an attractive manner? I would not for one minute suggest that there is no skill involved in fishing the fly. A good, thinking, fly fisher will out fish an average fisher most days. I would, however say that the difference in skill levels between a good fly fisher versus an average fly fisher and the skill levels between a good spinner and an average spinner are totally disproportionate. I have seen it too many times that a good spinner will out fish an average spinner manyfold, often taking fish out of water that has been fished through by several other anglers. A good fly fisher may do this too, but not to the same degree. I read a lot that some fishers find spinning too mechanical, I would suggest that they are not ‘in touch’ with the bait and what it is doing. Fly casting could be viewed in the same way, as I said before, 90% of fly fishing is done with the same length of cast at an angle of 45 degrees, a mend or two and the fly is allowed to swing round.
There are other points to be taken into consideration as well. What is the actual difference between a tube fly and a devon minnow, between a collie dog and a rapala. Other than the method used to propel them across the river, I don’t really see much. Water disturbance. How many fly fishers wade to fish their chosen method? Far more than those with a spinning rod. How much disturbance is caused by the mechanics of either method? The spinning bait is cast and lands with a plop, then an alien object is brought across the stream through the salmon’s environment on a barely visible spinning line. The fly is cast, lands with a smaller plop, followed by the fly line, then an alien object is brought across the stream through the salmon’s environment, along with the highly visible fly line. In all honesty, which method is going to cause more disturbance? This does not take into account those that repeatedly cast three or four times until they decide that they have finally got their cast right, or the high proportion of spey casters and the associated water disturbance. Remember it is a totally different thing fishing on a private beat where a pool may be fished once in the morning and then again in the afternoon and a club water which may see a procession of anglers from dawn to dusk. Then, of course, we come to the conservation aspect. I have caught too many salmon with the fly down in the gill rakers to believe that it is any less likely to damage a fish than a devon minnow or rapala. I would certainly say that a lot of fish are hooked farther back with the flying ‘C’ than most baits though. If you are out to release every salmon that you catch with as little stress to the fish as possible, you would never choose to fish the fly. I do not believe that anyone could honestly say that a fish can be landed faster on fly tackle than spinning tackle. In my experience the fight lasts at least 25% longer on fly tackle than spinning tackle. Please do not misread me, I am not decrying the fly, merely putting things in perspective as I see them.
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Post by Willie Gunn on Oct 21, 2007 15:57:18 GMT
No mention of trolling?
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Oct 21, 2007 16:18:22 GMT
Harling, as, I understand, practiced on the Tweed and Tay - some beats / pools suited for this but little else in the way of fishing methods - where does that fit into the picture??
I do seem to recall that a very successful method was the Kynoch ?Killer (a lure type device akin to a pike plug, in gaudy colours) - again, fished from a boat, but neither spun nor nor trolled, just held behind the boat as the oarsman/ghillie steadied the boat in the current upstream of suitable salmon lies. Am I to understand that harling was using a fly rod & fly, or a spinning rod & lure?
Mike
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tweedsider
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Post by tweedsider on Oct 21, 2007 16:58:47 GMT
Hi Mike I have never heard of harling taking place on Tweed, at least not in the lower river where you would most likely to expect this method to take place.
Thankfully my Association operates a fly only rule throughout the season therefore I am never tempted to pick up one of these dreadful whirligigs with the bit of bent wire in front. Perhaps spinning has been given a bad name as some participants will persist with this method when conditions are unsuitable. Does the plop of the lump of metal disturb the pool? I dont know. However
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tweedsider
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Post by tweedsider on Oct 21, 2007 17:03:43 GMT
Hi Mike I have never heard of harling taking place on Tweed, at least not in the lower river where you would most likely to expect this method to take place. Thankfully my Association operates a fly only rule throughout the season therefore I am never tempted to pick up one of these dreadful whirligigs with the bit of bent wire in front. Perhaps spinning has been given a bad name as some participants will persist with this method when conditions are unsuitable. Does the plop of the lump of metal disturb the pool? I dont know. One thing the Tweed rules create a fly fishing ethic, and some highlyskilled fly fisders in early spring and autumn. How much easier it would be to flick a piece of ironmongery across a lie rather than roll cast a sinking line to the surface and then put it 25- 30 yards across the river However I do enjoy a decent pint, a gin and tonic, a dram a drop of plonk, not all at once mind you, and I fail to see how you can judge a man by his tipple. Tweedsider
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Oct 21, 2007 17:14:21 GMT
Hi Mike I have never heard of harling taking place on Tweed, at least not in the lower river where you would most likely to expect this method to take place. Thankfully my Association operates a fly only rule throughout the season therefore I am never tempted to pick up one of these dreadful whirligigs with the bit of bent wire in front. Perhaps spinning has been given a bad name as some participants will persist with this method when conditions are unsuitable. Does the plop of the lump of metal disturb the pool? I dont know. One thing the Tweed rules create a fly fishing ethic, and some highlyskilled fly fisders in early spring and autumn. How much easier it would be to flick a piece of ironmongery across a lie rather than roll cast a sinking line to the surface and then put it 25- 30 yards across the river However I do enjoy a decent pint, a gin and tonic, a dram a drop of plonk, not all at once mind you, and I fail to see how you can judge a man by his tipple. Tweedsider I stand corrected 'bout harling on the Tweed, but as I've only heard about this as a method, never witnessed it, nor have I fished the Tweed much (not enough anyway!), it may be my old memory has let me down again. Must be the Tay only then. Maybe it's just a method now confined to the history books!? Mike
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Post by castelforte on Oct 21, 2007 18:40:42 GMT
Having read through the various forums that have come on the scene on salmon fishing, one thing they all have in common is the condescending attitude that a lot of participants show for spinning. First of all let me point out that I do most of my fishing on hard fished association water, and secondly I do not have an axe to grind on whether I catch fish on the fly or spinning. My own personal ratio is probably in the region of 50/50 and has been for the last 15 years or so. Prior to that I viewed fly caught fish as something special, something that happened on the best of beats, caught mainly by upper echelon of the fishing fraternity, both money wise and skill wise. I have now learned otherwise. However, every time the subject comes up on forums, I see a great swathe of pretentious, elitist and quite frankly, snobbishly ignorant people wading into the pool, causing unwarranted waves. Why can these people not realise that there is no BETTER way only DIFFERENT ways of catching salmon. I have no problem with anyone having a self imposed fly only restriction but why should they impose their preferences on anyone else? "Would you like a drink? What?_Beer? Oh dear me no, that's no good at all. It needs to be gin and tonic. You see that's what I drink so you must have the same"As I mentioned before, I catch about 50% of my salmon on the fly and the other 50% are caught spinning. I go fishing to catch salmon and fish with what I believe will give me the best chance on the day within the rules. It is one thing fishing on a bit of top class water which has a good stock of fish and is limited to three rods, another thing entirely sharing your beat with twenty other people and wondering if there are any salmon at all in the water. I know that there are people who say that catching the fish is not important, it is the surroundings, the wildlife, the sound of the river and satisfaction of putting out a perfectly executed spey cast which make the day, and that catching a salmon is just a bonus. To these people I would ask if they would go fishing knowing that there were no salmon in the river – the only thing they would be sacrificing is the chance of a bonus fish. No, I wouldn’t bother going fishing without at least a chance of a salmon either. As I said, I go fishing to catch salmon first and foremost. I think we should ask ourselves a few questions on whether it is better, or more skillful to catch a salmon on the fly or the spinner. Is it more skilful to catch a salmon on the fly or the spinner? Given that at least 90% of fly caught salmon which I have witnessed are caught on a floating line, cast at 45 degrees to the stream, allowing the fly to swing round with the occasional mend to slow or speed the progress. I would say that there is not a huge amount of skill involved in the catching of 90% of fly caught fish. Bearing in mind the huge improvements in today’s spey taper fly lines and carbon rods, it is well within the grasp of the average fisher to be able to throw at least 25 yards within a day of picking up a rod. In the hands of a competent caster, I would seriously doubt if a spinner could be cast much further than the fly. Even if your fly line lands in a crumpled heap, how many seconds is it before the current finishes the job for you and your fly is fishing in an attractive manner? I would not for one minute suggest that there is no skill involved in fishing the fly. A good, thinking, fly fisher will out fish an average fisher most days. I would, however say that the difference in skill levels between a good fly fisher versus an average fly fisher and the skill levels between a good spinner and an average spinner are totally disproportionate. I have seen it too many times that a good spinner will out fish an average spinner manyfold, often taking fish out of water that has been fished through by several other anglers. A good fly fisher may do this too, but not to the same degree. I read a lot that some fishers find spinning too mechanical, I would suggest that they are not ‘in touch’ with the bait and what it is doing. Fly casting could be viewed in the same way, as I said before, 90% of fly fishing is done with the same length of cast at an angle of 45 degrees, a mend or two and the fly is allowed to swing round. There are other points to be taken into consideration as well. What is the actual difference between a tube fly and a devon minnow, between a collie dog and a rapala. Other than the method used to propel them across the river, I don’t really see much. Water disturbance. How many fly fishers wade to fish their chosen method? Far more than those with a spinning rod. How much disturbance is caused by the mechanics of either method? The spinning bait is cast and lands with a plop, then an alien object is brought across the stream through the salmon’s environment on a barely visible spinning line. The fly is cast, lands with a smaller plop, followed by the fly line, then an alien object is brought across the stream through the salmon’s environment, along with the highly visible fly line. In all honesty, which method is going to cause more disturbance? This does not take into account those that repeatedly cast three or four times until they decide that they have finally got their cast right, or the high proportion of spey casters and the associated water disturbance. Remember it is a totally different thing fishing on a private beat where a pool may be fished once in the morning and then again in the afternoon and a club water which may see a procession of anglers from dawn to dusk. Then, of course, we come to the conservation aspect. I have caught too many salmon with the fly down in the gill rakers to believe that it is any less likely to damage a fish than a devon minnow or rapala. I would certainly say that a lot of fish are hooked farther back with the flying ‘C’ than most baits though. If you are out to release every salmon that you catch with as little stress to the fish as possible, you would never choose to fish the fly. I do not believe that anyone could honestly say that a fish can be landed faster on fly tackle than spinning tackle. In my experience the fight lasts at least 25% longer on fly tackle than spinning tackle. Please do not misread me, I am not decrying the fly, merely putting things in perspective as I see them. Butinbee, I fly fish most of the time. I also have my kids spinning next to me in the beats because here in Norway kids under 16 fish for free and we do not have fly only regulations on most rivers. people fly fish because it is more challenging and often produces better results but this is by no means the majority of the angling fraternity since we also have a lot of worm fishers. I fished an 8 rod beat recently in a waterfall and 7 rods spinning and me on the fly. I was the only to catch a fish. My tube fly was home made in the cabin the night before. I caught it in what many would see as an impossible place to cast a fly. The spinner would have been easier to cast but it will not move like a fly will. Fly fishing will always have the edge for this reason. Sometimes we use streamers that are imitating small fish like sild (herrings) and sandeels, and these again are usually more successful than spinners. Many Norwegians will cast these on a spinning rod when conditions dictate. The main advantage of spinning is the ability to cast very long distances in confined spaces. It is easier to learn to cast a spinner than a fly line. I drink red wine beause it is good for the health, I do not smoke and I do not talk out of my backside. You seem to despise people like me quoting gin and tonic versus beer. Here in Norway we have very strict alcohol regulations but I have visited the UK and seen how everyone has red wine in their supermarket carts. For you to put forward a class argument is wrong on a fishing forum. What's more wrong is that you facts on drinking habits reflecting class are completely false. I suggest your fishing ability is equally flawed. CF
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tweedsider
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Post by tweedsider on Oct 21, 2007 18:58:28 GMT
Interesting point there castleforte about you being the only one to catch on fly among a hoard of spinners. Rewind back to April 1958 spring fish ruled supreme on Tweed in those days. That year I caught my first salmon ,illegally as it so happened, on a greenwells glory trout fly. But. That year trout anglers were having a field day among salmon on normal trout flies. At that time there was a spinning fixation on Tweed, golden and silver sprats as I remember, a large offering. Yet trout anglers were outfishing the boat borne salmon anglers to such an extent that the local constabulary were mounting occasional patrols along the river bank to deter the miscreants. Aye gie me the flea ony day.
Tweedsider
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Post by castelforte on Oct 21, 2007 19:47:40 GMT
Tweedsider,
The river was the Suldalslagen and the beat was sandsfossen which is one of the best beats. A lot of the guests are there for corporate entertainment and only a few have any fishing experience.
What I negelected to say was that if I took a beginner along to such a challenging spot I would recommend he use the spinning rod. However, I would always recommend that he use a spinning rod with a weight and a tube fly on the end. Some of these tubes are enormous but generally are much easier to control in fast water on a flyline or on a weight set up, than a spinner would be. You also have the option of using light plastic tubes which dance around in fast water and these can be deadly when trying to catch fish in a waterfall because the fish do not lie and are constantly moving.
Apart from ease of casting, the spinning rod weight-deployed fly is also very adaptable for deep pools or slow glides since you can simply change the weight without removing the fly.
The only drawback is that the casting is not as therapeutic as fly casting.
CF
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fruity
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Post by fruity on Oct 22, 2007 9:41:33 GMT
Dear buntinbee Casting a fly out at 45 degrees and letting it come across is an easy way to fish, just as certain tactics are with spinning. I agree with the majority of your FISHING opinions, but fundamentally disagree on the issue of fly v spinner. Even thought the methods are different and have their particular high times according to conditions, it requires more skill to fish a fly successfully than it does to spin with similar success. The fly is a more natural looking lure and usually more attractive to the fish, it has been proved to be generally better than the spinner under most conditions-though not necessarily all places. I exclude the conehead etc which I do not consider to be necessarily flies.
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owen
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Post by owen on Oct 22, 2007 11:12:24 GMT
CF, Interested to hear about the tube fly - spinning rod technique. Is this done using a paternoster type rig? I've always assumed in the UK that those using a spinning rod are fishing lures; was I wrong? Is this technique used anywhere in the UK where fly-only rules dont exist and even on fly-only waters would this technique be allowed as a fly IS being used?? Also just had a nasty thought about the damage I could do to myself with a Toby Salmo on a fly rod without body armour and a crash helmet. Nolon.
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Post by castelforte on Oct 22, 2007 12:29:46 GMT
Owen,
I was describing a technique that is used in Norway. In the UK I am sure it is used or has been used but not sure where.
Maybe Miss Ballantine's Devon Minnow was deployed this way.
You can use a whole variety of weights. The one huge drawback with spinning among boulders is that the spinner will get lodged. I still see anglers go through many expensive spinners this way. Weights can suffer the same fate so there are various approaches to making the weight snag resistant or disposable (note the trend in non lead weights). Generally, as you suggest, a patternoster style would be used but often T-swivels are best with the weight on monofil (lighter than the lead line). The tube fly would then be attached on he other side a metre or so away.
When I get time I will post some pics of the various weights.
CF
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fruity
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Post by fruity on Oct 22, 2007 12:50:39 GMT
Fishing a fly from a spinning rod isn't usually allowed on fly only water, at least I've never heard of it being accepted....I don't know anyone who has tried to use it. The method of using a spinning rod with a fly/tube fly has been used in the UK since spinning rods and flies were invented, there have been numerous books about it, it has been banned in various places and under various conditions is all too successful but, boring....no magic!
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Oct 22, 2007 15:23:46 GMT
But is 'fly fishing' using a fly below a float on a float / match rod legal?
I used to fish for grayling, dace, trout & chub on the Teme - Ludlow top weir with a #12 olive dun in the late summer/autumn whilst standing on the weir itself using the fly in place of the usual worm or maggot - to great effect - even standard wet fly fishing techniques coudn't match its success in those particular circumstances, and even used in other faster streams of the river to good effect - no salmon though!
Mike
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Post by castelforte on Oct 22, 2007 17:34:18 GMT
Fishing a fly from a spinning rod isn't usually allowed on fly only water, at least I've never heard of it being accepted....I don't know anyone who has tried to use it. The method of using a spinning rod with a fly/tube fly has been used in the UK since spinning rods and flies were invented, there have been numerous books about it, it has been banned in various places and under various conditions is all too successful but, boring....no magic! Who said anything about fly only water. The debate here is clearly about skills and NOT rules or regulations of the beat. I have read all the salmon fishing fora and see no mention of the use of a conventional fly deployed on a spinning rod. I was simply pointing out what I use from time to time and what many others use in Norway. I have used it in so-called classic worming holes with success where spinning is disallowed due to rish of foul hooking, and I have caught salmon. It was just conversation and I was not making out I had invented anything new. I posted some similar information on ASFF some time back and it was met with encouragement not replies like yours that say it is boring, old-hat, everyone does it etc etc (oh and by the way I don't know anyone who does it) CF
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conwyrod
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Post by conwyrod on Oct 22, 2007 17:42:55 GMT
I heard that one of the most successful salmon anglers on the tyne occasionally fishes a fly on a spinning rod. Obviously a deadly method in the right conditions.
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owen
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Post by owen on Oct 22, 2007 17:57:01 GMT
CF, Thanks for the info and look forward to photos if you get the chance. Always interesting and refreshing to hear about different techniques; especially those that seem fairly obvious once someone mentions them but I've never even thought to try. Cheers, Nolon.
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fruity
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Post by fruity on Oct 22, 2007 18:04:24 GMT
Dear Castelforte
If you look at Owen's post you will see that he mentions fly only water. For a earlier book I suggest you look at Alexander Wanless's "Light Line Fly Fishing For Salmon", (1944?). I not only use the method, I know others who use it. Have not said I don't know anyone who uses the method...but I don't know anyone who has or would attempt to use it on fly only water. I tend to use it in places where you can't fish with a fly rod, whether restricted by bankside or features such as rocks or deep water.
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Post by castelforte on Oct 22, 2007 19:28:13 GMT
Dear Castelforte If you look at Owen's post you will see that he mentions fly only water. For a earlier book I suggest you look at Alexander Wanless's "Light Line Fly Fishing For Salmon", (1944?). I not only use the method, I know others who use it. Have not said I don't know anyone who uses the method...but I don't know anyone who has or would attempt to use it on fly only water. I tend to use it in places where you can't fish with a fly rod, whether restricted by bankside or features such as rocks or deep water. fruity, I am an avid flyfisher and I fish with a fly line in places where I should really use a spinning rod or worming because I find it more challenging. The method I discussed is used for extraordinary situations where you just cannot get the fly line down deep enough. Here's a top notch beat on the Tengs where I fish: The pool is not wide but it is deep. Just below the vee is hole where running fish circle before going up the falls. A fly line cast here will not sink quick enough to swim the fly at the correct depth from this bank. On the opposite bank at lower water the ST3/4 or Type 4 Sinking Line will get down into the correct depth. I will often try a fly-line here casting upstream with a brass bottle tube to get the depth. Note that wading is impossible and there are rocks hindering any D Loop. Here's one of my favorites: Here's a typical grilse. Torpedo with a large tail. CF
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fruity
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Post by fruity on Oct 22, 2007 20:10:10 GMT
Dear Castelforte
Amazing looking pool, I saw the picture a few weeks ago with the nice tube fly, I think I complemented you again then. Surprised to read that the slim grilse is normal, thought it had just had poor winter feeding in the Norwegian Sea.
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