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Post by speyvalley on Feb 27, 2008 22:26:40 GMT
Following the winter floods on all Scottish Rivers over the past few decades and our concerns regarding Redds getting washed away,a photograph appeared on the Forum today which confirmed to me the damage being caused by these all to frequent winter rises.This picture should be taken to all the relavent fishery boards whenever they threaten to reduce the capacity or close any hatcheries,as they are an insurance policy which in many cases after some devastating winter floods will be the only thing left to to sustain future stocks on many rivers.It is very rare to get photographic proof that this is happening as the increasing Sawbill Duck population would normally have this snack hoovered up.This photo came from the River Tay which had a really poor season last year,I shudder to think whats left in the gravel after these huge winter floods,the Dee, Spey and other Northern Rivers have suffered these floods also,so I hope these Rivers will not be considering reducing the hatcery capacities. I know a lot of people especially the scientists think that nature should be left to sort itself out,as there is enough spawning stock in our Rivers to sustain them,but this photograph paints a picture to me that stocks will continue to dwindle if an increase in hatchery capacity whether it be small individual private hatcheries e.g beat owners or fishery boards.Any thoughts guys, especially the Ghillies on the Forum. Thanks to JSA for posting this picture Some (late) pics from opening day and a couple of other days on the first week of the season. Some eggs that we washed up in the high water James Chalmers.
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djb
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Post by djb on Feb 27, 2008 23:24:25 GMT
Speyvalley also to note that this picture was taken on the 17th Jan - there had been some high water but this was before the really big floods so who knows what additional damage was done. I think also the thing to remember here is that high water and floods are nothing new and nature "had" ways to compensate for these events, it always has BUT the problem is that WE are interefering with nature. The effects of the floods seem to me to becoming more rapid and very visible year on year i.e. bank erosion, movement of gravel, old tree's being taken down - this has always happened but probably more slowly than is happening now - someone needs to look at effects/impact of flood defences on major river habitats? - what real damage is being done by flood defences? They are unnatural and push the problems elsewhere & interefere with the natural flow of the river - dont build houses in the flood plains!! - nature didn't intend for large stocks of salmon to be netted in the river mouths - more or less sorted on our main rivers but not 100% - nature didnt intend for large numbers of fish and their food to be "hoovered" up by large trawler ships - nature would have accounted for fish being killed by predators but not to the extent that has been happening by the above - nature didnt account for the "antis" and the fact that certain predators (whose numbers are becoming uncontrollable) cannot now be controlled/managed by man as had happened for hundreds of years. These are all bigger issues which need the "big guys" politicians and other bodies to sort. I think it shows the importance therefore of initiatives such as the TWCP and the changes in the C&R policy (could still be better) on the Tay and what has happened elsehwere such as on the Dee. Dead fish cant spawn and as anglers we must do what we can to counter the effect of the above.....if we do our bit then we can then "encourage" others to do theirs!! Rant over...
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Post by victorclem2 on Feb 28, 2008 9:24:15 GMT
Speyvalley,
I think that although the photo is interesting and perfect for promoting the discussion you are making, it does'nt prove anything at all beyond that these eggs got dislodged by a flood, and that some-one found them. We found some fresh water pearl mussels washed up by floods last week. All that tells you that the floods were strong enough to dislodge an unknown proportion of them, and that we were lucky enough to find them.
Increasing floods are a big problem, and hatcheries can safeguard a proportion of eggs, but we can do other things as well, like ensuring fish access to smaller tributaries which are less likely to be washed out, or taking some sort of action to slow down water run-off.
Interesting discussion, I hope you get plenty of posts on this.
VC
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Tyne Andrew
Active Member
April Spring Salmon 2010 - Lower Pitchroy, River Spey
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Post by Tyne Andrew on Feb 28, 2008 10:59:14 GMT
Not exactly sure where I stand on this one, although I do think nature finds it’s way and I am not convinced that rivers have not always been susceptible to big floods. Maybe they are slightly more frequent now though.
I think some spawning areas will be more vulnerable than others. Perhaps fish spawning in the main stems of rivers are going to be more effected than those spawning high up in tributaries?
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hornet
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Post by hornet on Feb 28, 2008 11:23:21 GMT
Seeing this years flood as previously mentioned in the the Tay thread was truly amazing . Who really knows what happens to the river bed and the redds when in flood. The fear is that the redds are getting destroyed and what is left to hatch is food for the predators. Ever increasing water levels / floods etc now seem to be the norm so the river hatchery must be given priority to help preserve fish stocks. JSA thanks for the pic. Cheers
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Post by neptune on Feb 28, 2008 16:21:21 GMT
just another point.. because many rivers were at a very low level during spawning alot of fish didnt make it up the river to a safer area, the problem being redds are further down stream getting the full force of the floods
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Post by salmonking on Feb 28, 2008 16:54:59 GMT
Speyvalley, or taking some sort of action to slow down water run-off. Interesting discussion, I hope you get plenty of posts on this. VC V C 2,,What measures would need to be taken to slow down water run off,,,? Does this mean too much Field drainage round about our rivers nowadays?
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tweedsider
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Quietness is best
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Post by tweedsider on Feb 28, 2008 18:35:43 GMT
Hello SK there probabley is far to much drainage than is good for the river systems. When I were a load, yes yes it was not yesterday most of the old hands then were lamenting Hill drainage aas the main cause of rapid rises in water level, and equally rapid run off. Since then we have had forestry drainage, a whole lot of more tarmac and housing, all contributary to rapid and instant run off. Also the flood plain, the natural safety valve for rivers has been built upon, contained within flood banks rather than allowed to spread as nature intended. All factors which could have a negative effect upon junior salmon stocks.
Tweedsider
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Post by salmonking on Feb 28, 2008 18:43:35 GMT
Imajine what our shrunken rivers would be like without all this interferance from man,,,all rather sad really,,,a good spate may have lasted for a week or so,,now it's days ,,,and at the start of the year,,ie now,,they usually are very dirty,,,although in theory they should clear pretty quick with all the water we have had.
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tweedsider
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Quietness is best
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Post by tweedsider on Feb 28, 2008 20:16:15 GMT
Thats right Sk the craic used to be of a weeklang spate, rising slowly and falling slowly. Never to be seen again I am afraid.
Tweedsider
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Post by victorclem2 on Feb 28, 2008 20:38:21 GMT
Speyvalley, or taking some sort of action to slow down water run-off. Interesting discussion, I hope you get plenty of posts on this. VC V C 2,,What measures would need to be taken to slow down water run off,,,? Does this mean too much Field drainage round about our rivers nowadays? Salmonking, Very, very good question. We have very bad erosion in one of our catchment study areas, probably exacerbated by increasing rainfall and are considering commissioning some-one to throw a bit of light on what it might realistically might involve in this area, and if anything is in fact possible. To put things in perspective for you, there are 500,000 litres fall on an average Aberdeenshire (a dry place) acre in a winter period, I would think it would be AT LEAST twice that in the western parts of the Tay system. That is over 1,000,000 litres of water on every acre that has to drain off, in just a normal winter! Scary, eh? I think I am right in saying that salmon are programmed to push on as far as they can in their home streams because the side tributaries are less prone to such damage, and I suppose competition there will be less, and they know instinctively that this is a safer and better place to spawn. This means we should be thinking of the catchment as a whole, and all the little side burns are probably more important than we think. VC
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djb
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Post by djb on Feb 28, 2008 21:40:43 GMT
there was definately an issue with the low water in Sept/October on the Tay with fish stuck down in Perth (and being subjected to the huge numbers of seals - another issue which needs sorted - and all the Easter European and "rainbow" angling in Perth) and then a very late run of fish into the middle/upper river who maybe didnt push as far up as they might or indeed maybe didnt make it into their spawning burns!!? I saw large numbers of fish who appeared to be pairing up/spawning in the main river - I can understand why in some areas but I was surprised by the amount of spawning activity I saw in what is very deep water in places such as on the Kinnaird beat which is where this photo was taken. I saw fish still spawning on the first week of the season in very deep pools .....something must have effected their "radar" system I didnt think salmon typically spawned on deep pools - maybe some of the ghillies can throw some light on whether or not this sort of activity has always happened or?
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Post by salmonking on Feb 28, 2008 22:11:42 GMT
On my local river i have witnessed salmon spawning in the lower / middle reaches for years now,,,probably because of the cauld mentioned in another thread,,,,but could it be also,,the drier sep/oct we are experiencing,,or then again it may be the river is so stuffed full of fish,,they have no where else to spawn but here. Or when we do get a spate, it doesn't last long enough for fish at this time of year to reach the upper river,,and certain urges take over. So many theories,,not enough answers.
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Post by guay on Feb 29, 2008 0:47:27 GMT
There is no doubt that winter floods impact on the spawning!!! call it what u like...... global warming/climatic change.... its here and here to stay!!, salmo salar nows this better than we do!!! IMHO........we are now able to change things , regardles of the the Dee-v-Spey-v-tweed-tay, even Norway has had a poor season!!!!, the only way forward is to start "in house" get on top of it and work our way outwards!!!, the damage to the tay spawning activity during these last floods is at best or worst confined to a small area!!!, 30yrs later we now find that the river board has 3 million eggs in the hatchery!!, how good is that? IMHO 5,000,000 would be about right!!!, but we are getting there!!!!! dont want to bang on about the last board but!!!.......believe me the future is brighter
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wilson
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Post by wilson on Feb 29, 2008 2:44:24 GMT
I have a friend who grew up on the Matapedia and he has lamented to me numerous times how much the river has changed in his lifetime. There used to be boats which brought supplies upriver who can no longer navigate the waters because a lot of the pools have filled in. There have been some famous pools lost completely because the bed of the river has shifted dramatically from flood to flood. This seems to be recent events and in this particular case it's because of the poor logging practices. The Canadians won't think twice about a clear cut on a renown salmon river.
I understand that Orri Vigfusson was there and the overflew the region with a hydrologist to review the areas affected. You can see them on Google earth now and see that the water will just come straight down, there's nothing to hold the water back. It's consistent across all the rivers in the region and angler to angler. Rivers which used to take days to come up will do so in hours. I forget how much water an acre of forest will hold back but I know it's significant.
I think it's odd that fish would be spawning this late. Last year seemed to me stranger than most, perhaps this is mother natures way of protecting the run in some way.
-Chris
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Post by Willie Gunn on Feb 29, 2008 8:47:47 GMT
we now find that the river board has 3 million eggs in the hatchery!!, how good is that? IMHO 5,000,000 would be about right!!!, but we are getting there!!!!! dont want to bang on about the last board but!!!.......believe me the future is brighter The Tweed has had a new record season and it does not have a hatchery, perhaps there is a message there somewhere.
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fredo
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Post by fredo on Feb 29, 2008 10:44:23 GMT
Hatchery work in support of salmon fisheries Youngson, A.
Go to the FRS website and read the report by A Youngson (The link I put on earlier would not work, sorry)
I think anyone pushing for more and bigger hatcheries should read this. I think hatcheries have a place in fishery management/improvement but are only of relatively minor importance. Out of curiosity can someone tell me,
1) Have any studies been done to see if the stocking on the Tay has been beneficial? 2)Is care taken to ensure fish stocked in the Tay system are stocked as close to the area the broodstock are taken from as is possible?
I ask 2) because I recall pictures of fish beig rod caught from the middle Tay and taken to the hatchery. Is it not possible this may be doing more harm than good?
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
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Post by conwyrod on Feb 29, 2008 18:16:15 GMT
Hatcheries seem to be a useful way of boosting flagging runs, and improving catches for anglers, but habitat and water quality improvements are the logical way to guarantee long term success and naturally increasing runs of fish.
James's concerns about the increased frequency of severe floods also concern me. We now seem to get these big floods in December/January most years, when the redds are probably at their most vulnerable. Low river levels in the autumn could mean that fish are spawning in parts of the river that will be most affected by large gravel movements.
If we get into a long term cycle of dry autumns and wet winters, perhaps the salmon will adapt and run and spawn later in the season?
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Post by guay on Feb 29, 2008 20:23:46 GMT
Fair point Willie, I think the Northumbrian Drift Nets buy out has a big part to play in the Tweed success story!, and i realise that hatcheries only play a small part in the greater picture but better to do something than nothing Regards stan
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Post by dragonfly64 on Feb 29, 2008 21:26:53 GMT
Don't know wot to say about global warming etc, having an effect on Salmon spawning tendencies on the Tay, but can recall years ago-even before I begun Salmon fishing-the river reports of Trout&Salmon magazine mentioned "a tide-line of Salmon eggs" being left hi&dry along the river banks after such big winter floods. My best guess is that fish at the back end, those in spawning condition/gravid could be forced to spawn in the mainstem-deeper parts/pools of the Tay because those areas are the only places at that time-when the fish are ready to spawn-which seem to offer the fish the right conditions-water temperature, flow rate-needed for spawning.
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