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Post by builnacraig on Mar 5, 2008 22:30:46 GMT
Just a general query. Say you are responsible for completing the annual catch return for your fishery. How do you split grilse from salmon (assuming that you have no scale reading facilities)?
I am interested as I have seen anything from 5lb to 8lb used as the breakpoint.
I should add that it is rarely problem for me as I only ever catch grilse!
Builnacraig
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Post by G Ritchie on Mar 5, 2008 22:40:46 GMT
Depends on the time of the year. Back end grilse can weigh well into double figures, while early grilse can often only be 2 - 3lb.
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Post by walter mepps on Mar 5, 2008 22:47:48 GMT
I thought a grilse was anything below 6lb mark & anything above this was considered a salmon but last season i mentioned this to a local riverkeeper,,and he said he had known of grilse caught to 12lb to which i was bewilderd but this is apparently on how many years they have been away @ sea feeding.
cheers FQ
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Post by Willie Gunn on Mar 5, 2008 23:01:10 GMT
In the days when salmon were sold to pay for the fishings the price of grilse was less for salmon, the cut off point was 7lbs.
This was probably as there was something of a glut on the market.
Gaffing was banned on some estates as the buyers knocked £1/fish for those gaffed.
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Post by walter mepps on Mar 5, 2008 23:17:53 GMT
In the days when salmon were sold to pay for the fishings the price of grilse was less for salmon, the cut off point was 7lbs. This was probably as there was something of a glut on the market. Gaffing was banned on some estates as the buyers knocked £1/fish for those gaffed. So does the saying grilse come from fishmongers? |
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Post by Willie Gunn on Mar 5, 2008 23:32:44 GMT
So does the saying grilse come from fishmongers? No but a size of "x" pounds comes from fishmongers, G Rithie is as usual correct, the only way to tell is reading scales. |
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Mar 6, 2008 7:40:04 GMT
The word 'grilse' is thought to come from the French 'gris' or 'grisaille' - meaning Grey.
Mike
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Post by builnacraig on Mar 6, 2008 7:44:12 GMT
When I was club secretary I asked the local DSFB clerk what size to use as the split between grilse and salmon. His reply was 5lb!
Yet I worked on a salmon netting station in my youth and the split point was 8lb.
The reason I am asking is that I heard of an instance the other day when one a club secretary had made the clubs annual return to the DSFB . The catch for the club was 15 grilse and 1 salmon. The DSFB office staff had then recorded this as a catch of one salmon for the beat, as she didn't know what a grilse was!
Is it not time to call a salmon a salmon! and use a consistent weight (e.g.) 7lb for every fishery. There will still be misclassification but it will be reduced.
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Mar 6, 2008 7:56:10 GMT
I think a reasonable working 'cut-off' point is around the 8lb mark, without going into the actual scale analysis to determine scientifically if any particular fish has been wintered in the sea for one or two years.
Most certainly, I use that point, and fish @ & over 8lb are called 'salmon' by me, and under 8lb, they are grilse.
In terms of official returns to fisheries boards, perhaps salmon & grilse returns should be counted together, but the numbers of recorded grilse for any particular season seems to be used as a partial 'barometer' of the health of the system.
Mike
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hornet
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Post by hornet on Mar 6, 2008 8:11:29 GMT
I would agree that the only true way would be scale readings, saying that i also agree with Mike that any fish of 8lb and below would be classed as a Grilse and anything above would be a Salmon. Again one of those grey areas  Cheers Hornet |
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Post by Willie Gunn on Mar 6, 2008 8:22:23 GMT
The usual Spey Springers are around the 7lb mark, they are Salmon having spent 2 winters at sea.
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Post by Roobarb on Mar 6, 2008 16:23:46 GMT
The usual Spey Springers are around the 7lb mark, they are Salmon having spent 2 winters at sea. So why do some rivers produce grilse (1SW fish) that are as big as, or in some cases much bigger than, the MSW salmon that come back the next year? The Exe is the same (well a few less than the Spey!). Exe grilse in August/September are 6-7lb, Exe springers are much the same weight despite spending an extra 8 months at sea feeding. Many of the Cornish winter salmon in the mid teens of lbs are said to be grilse (1SW fish) yet the few springers caught down there are generally nowhere near this size. I read somewhere that much of the Tweed autumn run is supposed to be made up of big grilse rather than salmon. Is it all down to different feeding on different routes at sea taken by the different runs of fish. Or is it down to duff scale readings. Has there ever been a tagged smolt recaptured as one of these really big grilse? Anyone know? Andy |
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Post by builnacraig on Mar 6, 2008 17:21:23 GMT
The usual Spey Springers are around the 7lb mark, they are Salmon having spent 2 winters at sea. I caught a 7lb springer in May in the River Ayr but see the stick I got for saying that it was a springer! It is amazing what depths jealosy will drag people to. There were allegations that it was a grilse but I have the scale readings to prove that it was a two sea winter fish!! You don't get 7lb grilse in May. The usual Ayr spring fish are 10-16lb so mine was just smaller than the usual. Story of my life! Regarding Exerods point these small springer are slow growing fish from the same year class as the previous summers grilse. I know from my fish farming days that salmon destined to mature as grilse in their first summer grow much quicker in the spring than fish from the same batch which are going to mature the following year as salmon. They are on different strategies with growth hormones etc, kicking in during the onset of maturation increasing appetite and growth. Fish at sea will show the same variation and not all fish will be intent on feeding at maximum capacity all the time. Builnacraig |
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Mar 6, 2008 17:45:40 GMT
Aye, It's a lot better to have a beached 7lber (whatever the 'label') than to have duck-all for the day !! This scale-reading (taking even one extra scale for 'scientific' purposes - to prove number of sea winters does do some additional harm to the fish) should be minimised, and just call a fish a fish. All this talk about ducks & science reminds me of a wee story...... There was a shooting day event attended by 4 doctors: The doctors were: a physician, a psychiatrist, a surgeon, and a pathologist. It was duck shooting season, everything else was out of season. To be civilised, and to know who had shot what, the doctors agreed to go in turns, and they drew straws for the shooting order. First turn to shoot was the physician.... ...the call went out, the birds were over, and the physician took aim.....but he considered for a second..."are these really ducks???....I'd better investigate...." and whilst he thought about it for a few seconds, the birds were all gone, and his turn was over. Next to shoot was the psychiatrist..... ...the call went out, the birds were over, and the psychiatrist took aim.....but he considered for a moment..."well I know these are ducks, but do the birds know they are ducks and in season for shooting???....I'd better...." : again, his ponderings for a few seconds had allowed the birds to pass over and they were all gone, and his turn was over. Next to shoot was the surgeon..... ...the call went out, the birds were over, and the surgeon hardly even took aim.....but just "BLAM BLAM BLAM" and there was a spray of feathers, and a couple of birds plummetted earthwards. His trusty retriever brought the birds back, and then he shoved the now limp creatures in the face of the pathologist with the words....."Now are these ducks, or what?  " Mike |
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Post by Willie Gunn on Mar 6, 2008 19:29:03 GMT
The usual Spey Springers are around the 7lb mark, they are Salmon having spent 2 winters at sea. Though some are bigger!  Duffer just checking out that this is in fact a 16lb Lunker, I think that is the correct term but I'm not sure when a salmon becomes a lunker but perhaps I should ask on the Darkside. The camera man has been sacked as his finger is in all the shots! |
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hornet
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Post by hornet on Mar 6, 2008 19:50:36 GMT
Scientific question,
Do they use a SEM on the fish scales to determine what type of Salmon it was or is there another method / process.
Cheers
Hornet
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Mar 6, 2008 20:04:15 GMT
I think, but I am ready to be corrected, that ordinary light microscopy would be sufficient to determine the number of sea winters from the scale of a salmonid.
Mike
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Post by tynetraveller on Mar 6, 2008 21:23:59 GMT
Yes, definitely only a normal microscope, and at fairly low magnification. If you hold a scale up to the light unmagnified you can see the difference between the 'river' rings and the sea growth phase.
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Post by builnacraig on Mar 7, 2008 6:27:49 GMT
I think, but I am ready to be corrected, that ordinary light microscopy would be sufficient to determine the number of sea winters from the scale of a salmonid. Mike A microfiche is the tool. I suspect that you will be able to pick one up second hand quite easily. Just put the scale on the movable platform and a magnified image is presented on the screen. The contrast is excellent for reading the growth rings I have also seen someone use a digital microscope, they can be bought very cheaply now. Builnacraig |
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hf
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Post by hf on Mar 7, 2008 7:44:34 GMT
(An aside from main topic)
WG are you sure that is a salmon and not a bonefish? Maybe just one or two drammies and sweet memories when you were giving it a file name. No doubt you'll have a reply. ;D
highlandfisher
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