hornet
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Post by hornet on Feb 26, 2009 11:04:46 GMT
I'm sure we have touched on this subject before with the likes of prawns , shrimps , worms, lead core lines etc.
Spinning is always looked upon as taboo although i personally think it is fine.
So how long do you think it will take to ban certain flees like the Monkey.
A current deadly pattern which seems to get fished right through the Dee season.
Do forum members mainly use this pattern on the Dee or do they fish it on other rivers.
Cheers
Hornet
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Post by butler106 on Feb 26, 2009 12:02:34 GMT
Personally i am not a fan of spinning, just feels wrong to be spinning on a river and not much skill needed. (sure other will disagree and shoot me down in flames) but hey we all have an opinion. In regards to the "Monkey" I don't think there will ever ban a certain flee. I don't think it is the fly that is deadly but just that every man and his dog uses it, so most of the salmon recorded are going to be caught on it. its the exact same with the Cascade, cause one person caught a fish on it everyone put one on there line and now its regarded as a great fly for salmon but sure it would be the same result if everyone fished a silver stoat. Craig
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osprey
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Post by osprey on Feb 26, 2009 12:25:03 GMT
Personally I am not a great fan of so called flies dressed on tungsten tubes, made to look like a shrimp or a prawn, that have turbo discs to create a bit of turbulence, and fished on HD lines. Where do you draw the line between fly fishing and spinning?
Fly fishing to me is a few whisps of hair dressed on a low water double fished just under the surface anything else is just ironmongary!!
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Feb 26, 2009 12:50:59 GMT
Personally i am not a fan of spinning, just feels wrong to be spinning on a river and not much skill needed. (sure other will disagree and shoot me down in flames) but hey we all have an opinion. In regards to the "Monkey" I don't think there will ever ban a certain flee. I don't think it is the fly that is deadly but just that every man and his dog uses it, so most of the salmon recorded are going to be caught on it. its the exact same with the Cascade, cause one person caught a fish on it everyone put one on there line and now its regarded as a great fly for salmon but sure it would be the same result if everyone fished a silver stoat. Craig The spinning method is never likely to get a widepread national 'ban', and although shrimp/prawn fishing did appear to get that treatment from the vast majority of waters in Scotland, there are still rivers where it can be fished. IMHO, worm, shrimp & spinning as methods could be legitimately used, but there are influential forces to keep such methods 'off the menu' in many waters, with little likely to change. One has, therefore, to accept that, if you fish the Dee or the Spey, for example, you will be expected to fly fish, full stop. Thus, if your favoured or primary salmon fishing method is spinning (or worm/shrimp), then you would not really be able to contemplate fishing the Spey or the Dee, and you would be required to seek fishing elsewhere. For the same reasons, if you were keen to 'have the facility' of taking a fish home to eat, then you would be advised NOT to select salmon fishing on the Dee. I just don't 'get' the idea that a method is "so successful" or "deadly" that it needs to be banned - this has been used in discussions about the use of natural shimps - nor do I believe that worm fishing per se results in catching fish that are difficult to return live to the river. It seems to be the way such methods are utilised, (perhaps 'abused') that seems to result in restrictions or 'banning', and the key to such practices is education, and not bans. I seem to recall that in certain waters in Canada (perhaps the Eastern rivers) that fishermen are not permitted to use "weighted" flies - ie no added weight except the hook. Some UK rivers have banned the use of the fast-sinking "lead-core" lines. As to the "monkey" - this type of fly has been used with great success for over 40 years - some call it the Collie Dog, others may see it as a Sunray Shadow, and the current UK East Coast Scottish flavour seems to be the 'monkey' - basically a tube with a very long black wing, the 'trimmings' leading to unique names. Unlikely to be banned or restricted. Mike
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Feb 26, 2009 13:02:53 GMT
Personally I am not a great fan of so called flies dressed on tungsten tubes, made to look like a shrimp or a prawn, that have turbo discs to create a bit of turbulence, and fished on HD lines. Where do you draw the line between fly fishing and spinning? Fly fishing to me is a few whisps of hair dressed on a low water double fished just under the surface anything else is just ironmongary!! Simple. The line drawn between fly fishing & spinning is very clear. Fly fishing uses the fly line for the main casting weight, with suitably engineered rods. Spinning has almost all the casting weight in the spinning/wobbling lure, and casting that (with the appropriate rod) will pull out the very thin (almost weightless from a casting perspective) mono or braided line so that the spinning lure may be fished or spun across the fish & back to the angler. Other conceptual differences are just semantics With your sparsely dressed low water double fly fished just subsurface, you may well have a very enjoyable fishing experience, but you simply won't cut it when there is big, fast, cold, deep water in early season or in big rivers. I've observed the same differences in trout fishermen - almost sneeringly stated by some that trout caught on anything other than a dry fly is not a trout at all ! Each to their own... Mike
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osprey
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Post by osprey on Feb 26, 2009 15:48:58 GMT
Personally I am not a great fan of so called flies dressed on tungsten tubes, made to look like a shrimp or a prawn, that have turbo discs to create a bit of turbulence, and fished on HD lines. Where do you draw the line between fly fishing and spinning? Fly fishing to me is a few whisps of hair dressed on a low water double fished just under the surface anything else is just ironmongary!! Simple. The line drawn between fly fishing & spinning is very clear. Fly fishing uses the fly line for the main casting weight, with suitably engineered rods. Spinning has almost all the casting weight in the spinning/wobbling lure, and casting that (with the appropriate rod) will pull out the very thin (almost weightless from a casting perspective) mono or braided line so that the spinning lure may be fished or spun across the fish & back to the angler. Other conceptual differences are just semantics With your sparsely dressed low water double fly fished just subsurface, you may well have a very enjoyable fishing experience, but you simply won't cut it when there is big, fast, cold, deep water in early season or in big rivers. I've observed the same differences in trout fishermen - almost sneeringly stated by some that trout caught on anything other than a dry fly is not a trout at all ! Each to their own... Mike You are comparing two different casting techniques to draw a line between spinning and fly casting. However, my point earlier was in relation to the lure where I would argue, particularly in the spring months, that there is very little difference as the objective of both methods is to fish deep and slow with a fish attactor as opposed to fly and spinner. Certainly each to their own.
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Post by Willie Gunn on Feb 26, 2009 21:06:43 GMT
Is the Monkey anything like a Collie Dog?
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Feb 26, 2009 21:13:07 GMT
Is the Monkey anything like a Collie Dog? Very similar, Malcolm; yellow throat hackle added for 'bling' value. Mike
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Post by neptune on Feb 26, 2009 22:06:21 GMT
if it was possible & you used a flee on a spinning rod what kind of fishing would that be called
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Post by lastcast on Feb 26, 2009 22:16:27 GMT
if it was possible & you used a flee on a spinning rod what kind of fishing would that be called this is already a method that gets used i have seen quite a few fish caught with a 3" williegunn off the spinning rod the angler was fishing it the same way you would fish a floating devon bubble and fly is another lc
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Feb 26, 2009 22:16:31 GMT
if it was possible & you used a flee on a spinning rod what kind of fishing would that be called "Moy fishing" - specifically, the Ridge Pool. ;D ;D ;D Mike
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Post by Willie Gunn on Feb 26, 2009 22:21:20 GMT
Very similar, Malcolm; yellow throat hackle added for 'bling' value. Mike Ah a Collie Dog variant a bit like that Ray chaps fly.
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Post by neptune on Feb 26, 2009 22:53:04 GMT
my brain wasnt working well when i asked that, i had a picture in my mind of someone trying to cast a fly line with a spinning rod
if it was a spinning rod & a dry flee would it be a spin dryer
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hornet
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Post by hornet on Feb 26, 2009 23:04:11 GMT
Personally I would have loved to have tried fishing the shrimp just to compare it to the flee.
As the river stocks in those days were greater compared to today would it have mattered what was at the end of the line ?
Cheers
Hornet
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Feb 27, 2009 0:05:25 GMT
I think most would agree that ideal fly water is not necessarily ideal spinning water.
The same is true for both worm and shrimp fishing, each method being used in, very basically, different types of water - whether that be deep holes, slow water, rocky runs, and small pocket water.
The fact that some elements of the fishing intelligensia decide that such & such a river system/beat/club or whatever is 'fly only' or place other restrictions, seems to be an 'excluding' decision, and that such pools that are thus not ideal for the fly will, in effect, be 'rested', and the fish can hold up in these areas without having worms/shrimps/spinners wafting about them.
But taking such fishing areas out of circulation may be partially protective for the fish, but it also excludes some fishermen, who may not be well versed in fly fishing, from fishing altogether.
I have used all legal methods for salmon in a past life, but absolutely hated spinning with a passion. However, I found that worm and shrimp fishing (and NOT suspended under some PIKE float!) was indeed very pleasurable as a method of fishing certain areas, and very successful too. And, you still need as much peace & quiet when undertaking such 'bait' fishing anyway.
On must, however, accept the restrictions that are in place, and enjoy what we have. I would not for one moment consider taking a trip to Ireland just so that I could pursue such bait methods again, and I am most delighted to restrict myself to the fly rod.
Mike
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Speyducer
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Post by Speyducer on Feb 27, 2009 0:14:00 GMT
Of course you can cast a fly line with a non-fly rod, only much less efficiently!
I must say that I hve not been tempted to try this, partly because I have always had, since ever I started fishing, a fly rod available.
I have bait fished (bait-runner reel, mono, lead shot & worms/shrimps) with a fly rod, and apart from the more awkward positioning of the reel, it's OK, but I wouldn't recommend it!
There was a company many years ago, it may have been Shakespear, that produced a rod with a reversible handle, which could be switched around depending on whether you wanted to fly fish or use the worms etc. Trying to be a jack of all trades, and probably a master of none!
Mike
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Post by sinkingtip on Feb 27, 2009 8:27:05 GMT
Personally I would have loved to have tried fishing the shrimp just to compare it to the flee. Your turning into a richt thrill seeker these days. Sorry H - not comparable in any way whatsoever and certainly not the 'killer' people believe it to be. It was never anything more than 'another option' within a general arsenal - certainly on Tay. However, if you really need to satisfy your curiosity then take 50 yds of old monofil and tie it to the end of a stick. Tie a spark plug or lead 'baw' onto the end the monofil and turf it out into a pool or run. Stand back and soak up that unique sensation of feeling a lump 'o lead trundling down a river bed - thats about the size of it. Ditto a 'floating devon' or 'snakes'. Resist temptation - stick with the flee unless you become 'possessed'. Lets no get excited now. STip
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Post by kenfisher on Feb 27, 2009 8:57:46 GMT
i have heard that some beats on the spey wont allow guests to use the collie dug it seems that more often or not the fish will swallow it quite deeply i have never used a collie dog but it seems if you are strugling to get a fish it does work .
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Post by Willie Gunn on Feb 27, 2009 9:16:58 GMT
i have heard that some beats on the spey wont allow guests to use the collie dug it seems that more often or not the fish will swallow it quite deeply i have never used a collie dog but it seems if you are strugling to get a fish it does work . I have also heard that you loose more fish than you land just pricking them all. Which just goes to show that people are very ignorant about some methods.
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