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Post by salmonking on Feb 17, 2008 11:14:35 GMT
Whilst fishing the Tweed yesterday,,the gillie and i were discussing back end fish,which pulled up an interesting thought,, Now we all presume the back end fish are the big fellas,,,but in reality the fish are becoming smaller,,most in the 5 to 7 lb with bigger fish say 10 to 15lbs becoming quite scarce,,or say less common than they were 10 or 15 years ago.
This of course pulled up all kinds of theory's,,feeding at sea,,climate change meaning grilse running later and later each year,,etc,,,,with more and more anglers practicing c & r ,,surely this must be helping,,,maybe not,,,most of us ,,me included ,will take a cock fish for the table over a hen fish,,,,with cock fish usually being bigger,,could we be killing too many of the bigger cock fish ,,thinking along the lines ,,affecting the gene pool ,,,what I'm getting at here is,,,,if we catch a big cock fish at the back end,,in good condition,,the likely scenario is it will be chapped,,,making less and less of these fish hitting the reds,hence the smaller fish /genes being now more predominant. What do you guys think,,,,could it be...?
Hope this makes sense,,i had a bucketful last nite,,,and I'm a bit worse for wear.
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Post by walter mepps on Feb 17, 2008 12:11:49 GMT
Was also wondering Why do rivers like,,Tay,Dee etc. seem to get much bigger spring fish than the tweed?
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Post by G Ritchie on Feb 17, 2008 13:03:26 GMT
The bulk of the Dee early spring fish are generally in the 6 to 12lb range with only the occasional larger specimen, which seem to have increased in weight since C&R. The smaller backend fish are just not a Tweed phenomenon, the same thing is happening on rivers up this way. Most of these are late run grilse, which in the 1980's would have typically weighed about 8 to 15lb during the month of October. Now in october these late grilse tend to weigh from 5 to 10lb. Simply lack of feeding at sea. The summer grilse are the same, in July they used to weigh about 5 to 8lb, now they tend to run a little later and even with the extra time feeding at sea typically weigh from 3 to 6lb.
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
Posts: 4,659
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Post by conwyrod on Feb 17, 2008 16:55:53 GMT
I read recently that Tweed seems to run on a 50 year cycle - 50 years ago it was a better Spring river whereas now it is a better Autumn river. These changes must surely be linked to changes in sea feeding, presumably caused by factors such as climate change and exploitation of prey fish by commercial fishing fleets.
I also read that the bigger springers caught (20lb +) are 3sw fish, whereas the usual springers (<10lb) are 2sw fish.
People have said that an early run of big 3sw fish usually means a smaller than usual run of 2sw fish - I think this happened on the Spey last year.
I suppose gillies make this observation from previous experience, but I can't really see any logic in this. in fact, it would seem more logical that a smaller run of 2sw fish in one season could mark a good number of 3sw in the following season, ie some of the run have decided to stay a sea for an extra year.
Unless I am missing the point somewhere?
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db
Active Member
Posts: 34
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Post by db on Feb 17, 2008 20:54:37 GMT
I think we think too much of these things, but that is a good thing! I've read a little about the cycles on the Tweed, as recently as the 50s it was not noted for it's back end fishing, being much a spring river, with this run extending well up the main stem into Upper Tweed - unheard of nowadays. It is true that the average size of autumn fish seems to be dropping, backed up by work done by the Tweed Foundation www.tweedfoundation.org.uk/Salmon_sizes_for_RTC_report_2006_D_.pdf
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tweedsider
Active Member
Quietness is best
Posts: 993
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Post by tweedsider on Feb 18, 2008 19:16:31 GMT
Being a bit long in the tooth I can perhaps recall events which took place when the majority of members here were but a glint in their faithers ee When I first thrust my weelie boots into Tweed it was very much a spring salmon river, I have seen some excellent spring seatrout up to 5lbs also. Now while I may not have paid much attention to what went on in the classroom but crack at the riverside its still there. That crack was that indeed Tweed was only recently a spring river previously it was a backend fishery. A few years ago I attended a talk at a charity event by a Tweed biologist. He quoted records going back I think over a century and the pattern was ever changing from fish which took the main stem changing to tributaries changing back again. In the 60s the autumn run was begining to make itself felt, I have seen the boatman, long dead, at Coldstream Brig have up to ten 12 -16 pounders winkled out before 9am. Of course the disease in the 60s really seemed to knock the spring salmon on the head from which it never recovered. Tweedsider
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Post by salmonking on Feb 18, 2008 20:26:37 GMT
I can assure everyone who comments on the feeding at sea that there was plenty of salmon fodder last year,,we should see an improvement in size at the back end in the next couple of years if this really is the case.
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tweedsider
Active Member
Quietness is best
Posts: 993
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Post by tweedsider on Feb 18, 2008 20:56:03 GMT
To carry on from that last point SK I wonder when salmon stop feeding at sea. Our friend who runs the Salmon Company must have cut up thousands of fish and he reckons that very few of them have contained feed. Maybe someone on the forum can advise on this. I do take your point about feed the inshore waters were alive with sile last summer.
tweedsider
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Post by G Ritchie on Feb 18, 2008 21:35:22 GMT
This would benefit the sea trout more than the salmon. The salmon tend to stop feeding well before they reach the coastal waters. It may be of benefit to outward migrating smolts though.
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tweedsider
Active Member
Quietness is best
Posts: 993
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Post by tweedsider on Feb 18, 2008 21:43:01 GMT
Hello Graham That sounds about right, I have caught a small seatrout on mackeral strip while fishing for flat fiash in Berwick Bay. Regarding sea trout do you think or know if what they eat has an influence on the colour of the flesh. I have seen some pretty pale seatrout-- feeding on sile? Also seen plenty with deep red flesh--- feeding on shrimps or prawns?
Tweedsider
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Post by G Ritchie on Feb 18, 2008 22:15:20 GMT
Could be something in your theory. Something similar with brown trout, shrimp eating fish tend to have a reddish pink flesh.
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Post by carrick on Feb 19, 2008 2:28:53 GMT
I attended the opening weekend of Blackwater Lodge for an underhand/shootinghead course at the beginning of the month. It was attended by Dr. Ken Whelan of NASCO and he kindly gave a speech on the future of salmon at sea. This is a serious man who pulls no punches in what he says. I cannot give a full account of what he said so I have included this link. The graphs on page 23 show that there has been a steady decline in both MSW and 1&2 SW salmon for the past two decades. This was put down to a temperture anolomy off west Greenland impacting on avialable feeding in the area where our MSW fish feed. www.nasco.int/sas/pdf/cnl_07_12.pdf in www.nasco.int/sas/index.htm
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