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Post by cadfael on Sept 30, 2008 7:11:45 GMT
Right....this is my second post (after my hello....  but its something i need to ask before I do anything else.......its not meant to wind people up, and as the heading says...I just need clarification...I know what i think, but would like the view of the experienced... Approx two years ago whilst fishing for Barbel (I know...I know....), I was sharing the beat with a couple of Anglers who were "worming" for Salmon, nice fellas TBH, very chatty and apparently knowledgeable in their chosen sport.... One had a take and after a cracking fight of about 10 mins, he landed what was (we know now )a 15lb hen fish, obviously ready to spawn.......and which he promptly knocked on the head.......  As you can probably tell by now, I have a rather limited view on this particular episode (again this is in ignorance, and is no way meant to antagonize anyone.....) When I asked him why he had done it as she was obviously ready to spawn, his comments were....and this is no joke..." so i can show my neighbour..." now.....is this the norm?......I was actually quite appalled by his actions...and rather than get into a argument, i walked off in digust......BTW I have no problem with individuals taking fish, equally I have no problem with C&R.....but this....... Your comments would be much appreciated.... |
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Post by sinkingtip on Sept 30, 2008 7:22:29 GMT
His reasoning for the removal of this fish, or any fish come to that, is ridiculous in the extreme and particularly distasteful considering it was a hen ..... a coloured one at that.
"One for the pot" - fair enough, but not this.
May he rot in hell.
STip
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Speyducer
Advisory Board 
Release to spawn another day
Posts: 4,123 
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Post by Speyducer on Sept 30, 2008 8:18:09 GMT
Really sad, I know.
In times past, I have come across the same attitude & actions in respect of landed salmon. I say attitude, as perhaps any external expression of the reason for taking 'unclean' fish (& I personally include in the 'unclean' group - gravid hens, all dark or coloured fish [non-silver], kelts etc) and unseasonable fish has not been directly stated as for 'showing the neighbour' (or whoever), but with the intention to 'prove' that the fisherman can actually catch a salmon, and that payment for the days' fishing has been worthwhile.
In these days where most of the population has a mobile phone with a camera, and the cost of a reasonable digital camera is less than that of a half decent fly line, and an extra £1 for a tape measure, there should be absolutely no reason for any fisherman to kill a fish for the purposes of providing proof of such a fine capture to whoever.
I have even heard it said on more than one occasion, when a coloured fish has been chapped, that it will be OK for the smoker, or that the dog will enjoy it. Even on fora such as this, I have seen replies condoning, indeed praising, the angler on his first ever salmon (killed of course!) even though that fish was very coloured.
Fortunately, such persons are rapidly becoming the small minority, and it will only be when there are no fish left to catch on their rivers will such antics be eliminated.
Mike
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Post by cadfael on Sept 30, 2008 10:40:00 GMT
Thanks Guys.... It's not me being a bit over sensitive then...granted up until 3 years ago i was a course fisherman so taking fish has never been an option....but I took my very first rainbow on the fly, I gave it to my dad in law for paying for my days tuition....never took once since.....but as i have said i have no problem with anyone taking fish...I've took enough birds on shoots.... it was just the ethics of taking a fish that TBH should have been put back.....(if i remember right the same chap took another larger cock fish the same week.....21lb i have been told...) I neglected to add (apologies) but the saddest thing was that the bailiff stood there and said nothing at the time.....I no longer fish that AA's waters now (some bl**dy good Barbel there too....  ) Right then...now I know thats not the norm I can get on with learning and asking advice..... once again...thanks.....  |
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tweedsider
Active Member
Quietness is best
Posts: 993
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Post by tweedsider on Sept 30, 2008 15:39:49 GMT
In this day and age there is no excuse for taking unclean fish, your guy was right out of order.
Tweedsider
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Post by sinkingtip on Sept 30, 2008 16:28:14 GMT
Ask on ......... cadfael
regards
STip
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Post by salmonking on Sept 30, 2008 17:45:28 GMT
This is one of a few reasons why i don't help all brothers of the angle, as a good Friend on this site has stated.....in landing fish etc.
I have seen this many times,you come across seemingly nice chap
and he has either two or three fish in his boot,bag,or whatever
or worse still a coloured fish,cock or hen it doesn't really matter,
no respect and no sense ..MR BRAVADO..i wouldn't have kept my mouth shut ,but then again sometimes i find it hard. ;D
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
Posts: 4,659
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Post by conwyrod on Sept 30, 2008 18:11:18 GMT
This sort of thing still seems to happen far too often. I think it is down to sheer ignorance, often from novices who don't know any better, but also by some of the old school who are used to killing everything they catch. I think part of the problem is that salmon carry a lot of trophy status and some people feel the need to have evidence of their success.  Not sure how we can educate people better, but I've noticed that T&S are getting heavily criticised for publishing pictures of so many dead fish, even clean ones. I think it rests with us anglers to make our feelings known. You need to be tactful, but comments such as "that's a big brown trout" or "has that been smoked already" :Pmight help get the message across. |
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Post by lunesman on Sept 30, 2008 18:33:34 GMT
To me , these people are not fisherman, but merely trophy hunters who need to show their catch in order to give them some sort of bragging rights
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Post by sinkingtip on Sept 30, 2008 21:15:53 GMT
I think it rests with us anglers to make our feelings known. You need to be tactful, but comments such as "that's a big brown trout" or "has that been smoked already" :Pmight help get the message across. Should the "tactful" approach fail to get through you could always try - "Ye canny eat that - sh*te tastes better" ...or...."Chap that and I'll chap you - ya barsteward !" ....... or (as in the Harry Enfield character) "You don't wanna do that ...... you wanna do this" - as you slip it back before he can even think about reaching for the priest STip |
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
Posts: 4,659
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Post by conwyrod on Sept 30, 2008 21:19:11 GMT
Andy, I'd probably use your more direct approach if the guy was smaller than me. ;D
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Post by neptune on Sept 30, 2008 21:21:16 GMT
more permits should say that coloured fish cannot be taken as most only advise not to, also maybe they should impose a fine if they are taken (say £500 or a brick across the head ) maybe this would get the message across another idea is to follow tweedsiders example & take a pic of the mongers killing the kippers, wich could be posted in a name & shame thread |
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Post by salmonking on Sept 30, 2008 21:25:33 GMT
Aye the trophy hunters ...and there's lot's going about, just this year April in fact i caught and released an est 18lbs springer,by far my best fish ,one angler i fish with said he'd have chapped it and had it mounted, ;D,another said it wouldn't have gone back if he'd caught it,  , The attitudes of some are ,well .....me,me,me. |
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conwyrod
Advisory Board
Autumn on the Conwy
Posts: 4,659
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Post by conwyrod on Sept 30, 2008 21:32:14 GMT
You're right Col, a nice photo and the satisfaction of releasing a good fish are all you need to remember the occasion.
Good idea Neptune, photos of coloured fish on the permits and a fine or a ban for offenders would help.
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Post by cadfael on Oct 1, 2008 5:01:28 GMT
Well thanks for your opinions all...I'm glad my ethics are accepatble.....I'm not afraid to admit I know nothing regarding salmon fishing apart from what i see on the discovery channel and in T&S.....
But in order for me to make another step forward, I need to ensure I wouldn't be treated as an outcast for caring.....I didn't think that was the case...this incident got my blood boiling, and now, two years later, it still stirs me up...walking away was the safest option......
My current AA is primarily Grayling & BT, and the taking of Grayling as now been banned as certain individuals were taking more than allowed (one took 12 in one session...the limit was 2....he had his season permit ripped up in front of him and his bag confiscated...and threatened with the law for theft of all things...)....I take nothing as I'm C&R....would only take one if had no choice...and probably give that to the bailiff (he also taught me the finer points of nymphing...)
anyway.....waffle over.....its reassuring to know I'm amongst like minded people...
Cheers
Steve
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Post by sinkingtip on Oct 1, 2008 7:23:31 GMT
That you are Steve. Sure, we, as fishermen, are all 'hunter gatherers' when it comes down to it. We appreciate that there is nothing more inwardly fulfilling than to stalk, capture ..... and release salmo salar. Take the occasional fish ! (perfectly acceptable IMO) ..... but be selective ....... "be very selective" - a wee bar 'o silver cock grilse for example. OK - I hear you chant ...... "Yeah !, all fair and well but tough luck if you happen to be "a wee bar 'o silver cock grilse STip" ........ (equal opportunities and all that ) - better a wee CG than a springer, a hen at any time of the season or anything caught after August IMO - even taking the odd sea trout is increasingly becoming more difficult to morally justify on most rivers these days. Welcome to '74. regards STip |
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Post by cadfael on Oct 1, 2008 10:21:38 GMT
Personally I don't like the taste of salmon, (prefer sea bass myself..... ;D) so why bother taking it........a photo will do, be it with a camera, or with my mind... ....but many do like it, so fair doo's to them if they want to to eat it...get no criticism from me...each to their own....enjoy.... .....But for me it as to be the whole package....the scenary, the morning mist, the drizzle, the frost, the snow...the bloody cold!!!, (the hot toddy where required...) the running water around my calves / knee's / waist, the sound of water over rocks, the feel of the rod in my hand, the movement of the line in the air, the subdued excitment of one of my own flies in the water.....and the rush with the pull of a fish...... ....done!!.....I've achieved what i set out to do......simple really... after that, landing and photographing is a job well done and added bonus...... and finally releasing it......like the final act of a very fine play....... a romantic vision?...probably....but thats all i ask, all I need... |
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Post by johnste on Oct 1, 2008 20:11:22 GMT
Are there any published scientific survey results on the survival rates of returned fish?
Yesterday I was present during a phone call at Dalguise from the ghillie of the next beat up who had found a dead 12lb cock fish in the margin. In the abscence of disease and predator marks I can only assume it was played to exhaustion and returned to die another day?
What sort of thought process goes into returning a silver cock fish? Is the length of fight considered, time to revive....?
What goes through your head the moment the fish is on?... I can't wait to put it back....I want this on the bank as soon as possible..OR...this isn't getting away from me?
Do you have a cut off point during the fight when you think you have stressed the fish too much?
As a convert from trout fishing I have always put back a vastly greater number than I have taken but I fished with barbs on the point and a priest in my pocket. I fish because I like the neanderthal challenge of man against prey. I sometimes do a great adversary the honour of making it into a great meal.
As most of the fish I see on the Teviot are redder than Josef Stalin it's not something I need to consider too often!!!!
I am neither a fishmonger nor trophy hunter.
A heated debate will no doubt ensue?
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Speyducer
Advisory Board
Release to spawn another day
Posts: 4,123
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Post by Speyducer on Oct 1, 2008 20:43:02 GMT
Are there any published scientific survey results on the survival rates of returned fish? Yesterday I was present during a phone call at Dalguise from the ghillie of the next beat up who had found a dead 12lb cock fish in the margin. In the abscence of disease and predator marks I can only assume it was played to exhaustion and returned to die another day? What sort of thought process goes into returning a silver cock fish? Is the length of fight considered, time to revive....? What goes through your head the moment the fish is on?... I can't wait to put it back....I want this on the bank as soon as possible..OR...this isn't getting away from me? Do you have a cut off point during the fight when you think you have stressed the fish too much? As a convert from trout fishing I have always put back a vastly greater number than I have taken but I fished with barbs on the point and a priest in my pocket. I fish because I like the neanderthal challenge of man against prey. I sometimes do a great adversary the honour of making it into a great meal. As most of the fish I see on the Teviot are redder than Josef Stalin it's not something I need to consider too often!!!! I am neither a fishmonger nor trophy hunter. A heated debate will no doubt ensue? Eva B. Thorstad , , Tor F. Næsje, Peder Fiske and Bengt Finstad Norwegian Institute for Nature Research, Tungasletta 2, NO-7485, Trondheim, Norway Received 28 December 2001; revised 15 July 2002; accepted 3 August 2002. ; Available online 21 November 2002. www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T6N-478HX00-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=85154f037bede9702eb7fcd1b9b9f4feMike editor's notes: chapped fish have a 0% survival |
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Post by johnste on Oct 1, 2008 20:49:32 GMT
Thanks Mike.
I see from the link that some of my questions were touched on in the survey.
John.
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but its something i need to ask before I do anything else.......its not meant to wind people up, and as the heading says...I just need clarification...I know what i think, but would like the view of the experienced...
)
,