spruce
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Posts: 33
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Post by spruce on May 24, 2008 20:44:46 GMT
Hope this question does not seem too ridiculous, here goes! During low water conditions would it not be feasible to adopt the upstream method, as per trout fishing, for salmon? As well as using large nymph types of flies would it not also work with the more traditional type patterns? Longer casts than those usually associated with the "Czech nymph" method could probably be used and the fly stripped back. After all a lot of spinning is conducted in this way! Just thought that by fishing upstream it could avoid spooking wary fish or is it just a total no no!?
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Post by sinkingtip on May 24, 2008 22:45:44 GMT
Oddly enough I was just discussing this very thing bankside the other night with a weel kent South Esk ghillie. The initial conversation centered around my admission that, as a fresh faced youth, I used to 'slaughter' the sea troots on an upstream Mepp's - usually just after the light had come up and the flee rod put away ..... a wee flick upstream into the throat of a pool or the wee pots you get on any boulder strewn river, retrieve fractionally faster than the current, a quick glance a few feet behind the the Mepp as it comes hurtling towards you, two or three grey ghosts in hot pursuit and .... wallop !! "yer in"!!. Discussion ensued as to why the principle of a quickly retrieved flee shouldn't be equally as effective as a Mepp - although we were talking specifically about our experiences with sea trout as opposed to 'fish'. I then admitted to having tried a quickly retrieved Peter Ross or Stoats Tail on more than one occasion over the years (usually when fish have moved above me having just fished through the pool in a conventional manner) but with very limited success. I am fully aware that Czech Nymphing is based on this principle but not being an exponent of this particular technique cant really comment much further.  Any Czech Nymphers or closet Mepp men want to come in on this one ? STip |
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Post by Roobarb on May 25, 2008 7:37:38 GMT
This is how I do it. As long a leader as I can manage to avoid lining the fish. A half inch brass tube fly (templedog or collie type thing) to get some depth. Cast from well downstream to keep out of sight. Wait a second and strip, strip, strip all the way back to your feet (swing the rod downstream to keep it going). You now have very little line out so lots of false casting to get it back up there, the stripped line is all tangled around your legs or the thistles and brambles if you are on the bank. Results so far = a couple of sea trout  It looks like it should work but it doesn't for some reason  Czech nymphing for salmon to my mind is all about presenting the fly repeatedly at the fishes depth and on his nose rather than giving it something to chase which is what the upstream mepps (or upstream fly if it would only work) is all about. Back to the drawing board... Andy |
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stuart
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Post by stuart on May 25, 2008 8:56:26 GMT
You have to make sure that you are allowed to cast upstream as some beats don't allow this method of fishing.
Stuart
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Post by sinkingtip on May 25, 2008 9:27:08 GMT
Fair point stuart and a reminder in itself to always familiarise yourself with beat rules and / or restrictions and, as you say, if the beat rules say "no" then "no" it is - end of.
Having said that I think, from memory, that most of the beats I have fished which employ a "no upstream" rule relate this specifically to spinning - assuming they even allow spinning in the first place.
regards
STip
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salmo
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Post by salmo on May 25, 2008 10:43:25 GMT
I have used the upstream method with shooting taper S3/S4 with small bottles in some Norwegian rivers with good success. Sometimes just roll cast into the fast water and let the fly sink fast to cover the fish that are holding station just before they run up the falls. I find the takes particularly aggressive when you hook a fish that is just about to run they will take 5 - 10 yards in a heartbeat. The only trouble is that they sometimes run downstream and that is a bit challenging   ;D salmo  |
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conwyrod
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Post by conwyrod on May 25, 2008 11:24:46 GMT
I've had some success fishing small flies upstream for sea trout. Not a tactic I use often, but I remember catching 3 or 4 in quick succession on the Elwy one evening. It was v low water and fish were holding in a deepish hole downstream of a dead tree which had fallen in the water. An upstream cast - standing in the water and casting almost directly upstream- was the only way to cover them. A size 12 stoats tail treble cast upstream, and a quickish retrieve (just enough to keep a tight line), worked well until the small pool was disturbed. I'm sure czech nymphing for salmon will work - in fact I know that many salmon are hooked by grayling anglers on the Welsh Dee at the backend. I think water like this, fastish water with deep pots, has good potential for czech nymphing :  |
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Post by sinkingtip on May 25, 2008 11:41:32 GMT
Looks like braw Mepp water John. |
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conwyrod
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Post by conwyrod on May 25, 2008 11:52:45 GMT
Looks like braw Mepp water John. ........or even a garden snake Andy.  Parts of the Dee reminded me of the lovely river Glaslyn in N Wales, which is classic worm water.  |
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Post by sinkingtip on May 25, 2008 12:04:13 GMT
Now theres a thing ! Whit aboot the noble art of casting a wee brandling affixed to a 'stewart tackle' cast and in an upstream manner and slowly retrieved as it meanders its way around, past and through these wee pots ..... off the end of a flee rod ? Ken far am cummin fae ? |
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conwyrod
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Post by conwyrod on May 25, 2008 12:08:38 GMT
Now theres a thing ! Whit aboot the noble art of casting a wee brandling affixed to a 'stewart tackle' cast and in an upstream manner and slowly retrieved as it meanders its way around, past and through these wee pots ..... off the end of a flee rod ? Ken far am cummin fae ? If it was good enough for Falkus.................. Never really tried it myself, but done properly it sounds like a very skilful art. |
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Post by salmonking on May 25, 2008 15:48:27 GMT
Ive heard tales of this method from various Gillie's,,,and it seems to work during a long dry spell when fish are potted in deep featureless dubs,,,,though id tend to attack it with a size 16 lightly dressed shrimp flee,,,landing fish on these small hooks has become a bit of a burden in the past,,,on big rivers,,,although i have been successful on smaller rivers.
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Post by sinkingtip on May 25, 2008 22:20:47 GMT
Which method are you referring to col - the upstream snake or the flee ? The potted fish in "deep featureless dubs" comment concerns me though - I take it you are employing floating and not the Deep Water Xpress hooked in the erse style profiles ? Yer at the wrang end 'o the Tweed for thon caper onyhoo. Just kidding. STip |
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Post by Roobarb on May 26, 2008 8:32:24 GMT
I have used the upstream method with shooting taper S3/S4 with small bottles in some Norwegian rivers with good success. Sometimes just roll cast into the fast water and let the fly sink fast to cover the fish that are holding station just before they run up the falls. I find the takes particularly aggressive when you hook a fish that is just about to run they will take 5 - 10 yards in a heartbeat. The only trouble is that they sometimes run downstream and that is a bit challenging ;D salmo Salmo Are you having to strip the flies back to get a responce and has the method worked in pools without falls at the head? Cheers Andy |
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spruce
Active Member
Posts: 33
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Post by spruce on May 26, 2008 9:11:07 GMT
Thanks for all the posts BUT remember I specifically asked about upstream fly for salmon.
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Post by sinkingtip on May 26, 2008 14:42:12 GMT
Hi spruce - apologies for the slight digression by discussing the 'garden flee' and Mepp's within the confines and nature of your original question. I agree that, although not specifically related to "fly", discussion regarding why migratory fish in certain conditions will react to a quickly retrieved upstream 'lure' (any lure) whilst at other times prove fruitless, would IMO be considered wholly appropriate to the essence of the debate and facilitate a bit of tangential thinking of the 'bigger picture' variety - ken?. Call me a romantic fool if you must. regards STip |
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spruce
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Posts: 33
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Post by spruce on May 27, 2008 15:56:32 GMT
Which method are you referring to col - the upstream snake or the flee ? The potted fish in "deep featureless dubs" comment concerns me though - I take it you are employing floating and not the Deep Water Xpress hooked in the erse style profiles ? Yer at the wrang end 'o the Tweed for thon caper onyhoo. Just kidding. STip Just to shed some light on the tactic i use ,,,,fast sinker cast upstream(slightly),,,let it come round,,,over where the fish are ,,,, then a twitching motion if that makes any sense ,,,to induce a take,,,,,,,an example of the kind of dub below,,,,,  success,,using the tactics above  Do the same thing myself when fishing deep/fast waters to get the fly down initially but the slight upstream cast is soon cancelled out by the flow and then it's strictly downstream! |
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spruce
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Posts: 33
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Post by spruce on May 27, 2008 16:01:22 GMT
Hi spruce - apologies for the slight digression by discussing the 'garden flee' and Mepp's within the confines and nature of your original question. I agree that, although not specifically related to "fly", discussion regarding why migratory fish in certain conditions will react to a quickly retrieved upstream 'lure' (any lure) whilst at other times prove fruitless, would IMO be considered wholly appropriate to the essence of the debate and facilitate a bit of tangential thinking of the 'bigger picture' variety - ken?. Call me a romantic fool if you must. regards STip Understand or "ken" completely. I have some experience [35 yrs+] of coarse & trout fishing in stillwaters/rivers but am a novice at salmon fishing. That's why answers specifically about upstream fly for salmon are what I'm after. |
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Post by salmonking on May 27, 2008 16:02:35 GMT
ok,,post erelevant so it's deleted,,,,
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conwyrod
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Post by conwyrod on May 27, 2008 18:33:02 GMT
Hope this question does not seem too ridiculous, here goes! During low water conditions would it not be feasible to adopt the upstream method, as per trout fishing, for salmon? As well as using large nymph types of flies would it not also work with the more traditional type patterns? Longer casts than those usually associated with the "Czech nymph" method could probably be used and the fly stripped back. After all a lot of spinning is conducted in this way! Just thought that by fishing upstream it could avoid spooking wary fish or is it just a total no no!? Spruce, it's a fact that many trout and grayling anglers hook salmon while employing traditional upstream nymph or dry fly tactics, so the answer to your question has to be yes. I would speculate that such tactics are probably more successful on bigger rivers like Tweed and Dee, as in low water conditions on small spate rivers the salmon will have their heads down in the deep holding pools. Chances of success will be better at first light & dusk, as a few fish will move into the heads and tails of pools. Having said that, Tyne Andrew has recently shown that a big stripped collie works very well in low water as well!! |
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;D
