Baggots and Rawners

[G Ritchie]

I know these are reasonably common on the Tay where relatively warm river temperatures encourage late spawning, which combined with an early opening to the season, means that many fish are still spawning. On the other hand these were relatively uncommon on the Dee, Deveron and Spey. Until this season I had only caught one rawner (an unspawned cock fish) and seen one other. With baggots (unspawned hen fish) I maybe caught one on average every three or four seasons. This season they seem to be very much in evidence, I have already caught a few baggots and rawners and quite a few others have been caught by other rods. Last winter, although it was relatively mild, did have some hard frosts to encourage spawning and indeed spawning seemed to start a little earlier than the previous 2 or 3 seasons. On the Dee and Spey this tends to occur from mid November to early December, well before the fishing season starts again. So why are there so many baggots and rawners present this season, is it a result of the red vent syndrome present in the grilse and some salmon last season?


Another Rawner off the Dee yesterday


A Baggot off the Spey

[conwyrod]

Interesting question Graham, your theory about red vents might have something in it.

Both fish in the photos seem to have started to silver up - I suppose this is a sure sign that their bodies have started to absorb the eggs/milt and they're getting ready to return to sea - are coloured baggots/rawners ever caught?

Looks like your dog is doing a Rex Hunt and kissing the hen goodbye! ;D

[G Ritchie]

The hen is still fairly coloured, I guess it is just the sunlight reflecting off the scales which makes it look brighter. It was caught during the first week of the season on the Spey, they go more silver once you get into March and some people mistake them for fresh fish.

[Alex Robertson]

Dont claim to understand, all that there is to know about salmon, and their habits, but when working the salmon station in the 80's the log books there, would make a interesting read, in that the individual size of the fish taken from the nets would varey, from the start of the netting season through to the end, I cant remember what year it was, late 50's or early 60's, but the netting season would start in Febuary, and end in October, and as you read through the book, you would read that, with each passing month the size of the fish was that bit heavier than the previous month, dropping in the month of June, into July for the Grilse, then it would pick up again. When it came to the month of October, these fish would weigh in at 20lb and over. Sometime around that time the law/rules changed, and the season then started in April, and ended in September, again not long after, the figures started to decrease in both the fish size and weight, around the mid 60's or early 70's, not only was there was a noticable change in the catches, but also, the type of weather patterns normally associated with the seasons, this at the time was put down by the 'old sea hands,' as being the seasons getting later, and carried through to the time I worked there, but we now call it climate change, could this also play a part in the number of Baggots and Rawners we are now seeing today, or is there another factor comming into play that has still to come to light as you have suggested Graham, would also like to see pictures such as yours, displayed by other beats throughout, maybe then, other anglers may, be a bit more considerate and not go belting these fish over the head

[G Ritchie]

With the new season starting on some rivers on Monday, I thought it prudent to bring this up to the top again to let anyone not familiar with baggots or rawners see what they look like. A few of these get 'chapped' every spring, so take care with any fish you happen to catch.

[speyghillie]

Well done Graham, a timely reminder.

I think I remember you catching one up with us last season too.

I wonder if the increase in Baggots and rawners has anything to do with the stress involved in poor catch and relases techniques.

[G Ritchie]

It is quite possible, there certainly seem to have been more of them about in recent seasons.

[conwyrod]

Any thoughts on how the recent cold spell will affect kelts - will they hang about in the river longer?

[G Ritchie]

In a colder river they generally hole up in the deeper slower moving pools conserving energy. At least the cold weather should have triggered off spawning. One of the other possible reasons for the increase in baggot and rawners numbers could be the recent mild winters upsetting spawning patterns. I know that the last time I fished the Tay in January that there were some fish still visibly spawning in the tail of one of the pools and this was the last few days on the month. The Tay is one river in particular when a considerable amount of baggots and rawners are present, probably due to its earlier opening. In this respect it is a pity that Newtyle is reverting to a January opening, I had a lot of respect for Jock's stance in delaying the opening to the beginning of February.

[hornet]

The Tay was looking good today at Dalguise even though the weather was foul.

It was a severe improvement on last years adventure during the flood .

The mighty river was running gin clear, almost at summer level, it looked a cracking height for the flee. The water temp felt pretty mild and not freezing as i first thought.

It's also fine water for cleaning windows

Having glued my peepers to the river for a couple of hours watching the world go by, i seen no kelts lamping about so maybe the Tay Salmon are still busy with spawning.

I hope the lucky fishers who get out on the Tay on opening day have a superb time.

Cheers

Hornet

[tenet]

Two questions :

1. If backend fish full of milt and roe and often coloured are counted as "salmon" for the catch returns why not rawners and baggots.


2. Do Baggots and Rawners run back to sea with the kelts reabsorbing their milt/roe or do they hang around in the river until the current years spawning? If the later then they could magically become "salmon" again.

Tenet

[G Ritchie]

Feb 9, 2009 14:40:20 GMT tenet said:

Two questions :

1. If backend fish full of milt and roe and often coloured are counted as "salmon" for the catch returns why not rawners and baggots.


2. Do Baggots and Rawners run back to sea with the kelts reabsorbing their milt/roe or do they hang around in the river until the current years spawning? If the later then they could magically become "salmon" again.

Tenet

1. Coloured autumn salmon are counted because they have not started spawning yet. They are classed as baggots or rawners if they are still gravid after the main spawning season, i.e. in the spring.

2. The reabsorb the milt/roe and head back to sea with the kelts.

[tenet]

Thanks for that Graham - the reason I asked the question is that most of the pictures I have seen of baggots and rawners show fish without their spawning colours which would indicate that they,perhaps, have only entered the system in recent weeks. Are we sure that these fish will not spawn ,you mention above that Tay fish are still spawning in January and that perhaps Newtyle opening early is a retrograde step.

Tenet

[djb]

Tenet,

Fish which have entered the system in the last few weeks would be classed as springers and wont spawn until later this year/early next. I saw some big springers caught on the Tay in Dec 2007, when helping with broodstock fishing.

I think a lot of people mix up ketls/baggots/rawners just through inexperience but your point is valid, we (unfortunately caught) a mended kelt (would have been close on 30lbs when it entered the system) - hen fish/silvery and very skinny and a rawner - coloured but not hugely, small kype - on Saturday - both went back pronto. Compared to other fish I have seen splashing around or landed which are nearly black or red depending on the sex, the rawner was not as coloured as I would have expected.

There are probably lots of reasons for this which some of the more scientifically minded may be able to answer - i.e. has the age of the fish got anything to do with this. The rawner we had was clearly a grilse?


As to delaying the opening of the Tay, with the later runs we have seen over the last couple of years, there could well be a valid argument to delay oening to Feb and extend the season by a week or so. its unfortunate Newtyle changed the start of the season this year but Martin would be keen to get going and there has been a slight change in the ownership of the beat so probably made for financial reasons. That said Martin knows what he is doing and his whittled out a few springers already - one beat wont make a difference it needs a change across the system.

[tenet]

I don't mean to worry this to death but a fish caught say at the backend which was a late runner reasonably bright is classified as a salmon. The same fish that hasn't spawned perhaps due to mild temperatures is caught in January (maybe only 6 weeks later) that might yet spawn is called a baggot or rawner, yet looks in far better nick than some of the big black beasties taken by the Tweed rods in November.

Is there not a level of hypocrisy here!!!

Tenet

[djb]

Tenet,

I agree - its an interesting issue and I think worthy of debate

I should correct my last post slightly ......there are clearly fish which enter the system back in Nov/Dec that are springers and will not spawn until next winter but there are also some fish that whatever reason enter later but will attempt to spawn...I guess the difference is that the spingers will not mature sexually until later in the year whereas the late run fish will be full of milt/eggs?? Or is this wrong?

Late run fish I guess will not lose as much weight prior to spawning than a springer hence this may cause some confusion with anglers but a springer is a springer in my opinion..(or any fresh run fish for that matter).

[tenet]

djb - I agree that there is no finer sight than a fresh run fish full of vibrancy and perhaps lathered in sea lice (some years since I had one of those).

I think what I am trying to say is that if a baggot/rawner is not recorded as a salmon then perhaps seriously gravid fish should be discounted as well. This might have the effect of reducing the rod catch on some well known beats and accordingly the rents that are charged ( I'am thinking Tweed backend).

In my dreams I know as it would be impossible to police and cause severe consternation amongst riparian owners.

Tenet

[djb]

Tenet - We were talking about this whilst out on the boat on Saturday. I think there are some similar issues on the Tay. Not so much on the main river although it does probably happen on a few of the lower timeshared beats but more so on some of the beats in the upper part of the system who shall we say have other commercial interests other than fishing to attract anglers!!

The same beat (s) also never seem to catch fish under 15lbs!!!

[G Ritchie]

Feb 10, 2009 10:44:56 GMT tenet said:

Thanks for that Graham - the reason I asked the question is that most of the pictures I have seen of baggots and rawners show fish without their spawning colours which would indicate that they,perhaps, have only entered the system in recent weeks. Are we sure that these fish will not spawn ,you mention above that Tay fish are still spawning in January and that perhaps Newtyle opening early is a retrograde step.

Tenet

Feb 10, 2009 12:36:30 GMT tenet said:

I don't mean to worry this to death but a fish caught say at the backend which was a late runner reasonably bright is classified as a salmon. The same fish that hasn't spawned perhaps due to mild temperatures is caught in January (maybe only 6 weeks later) that might yet spawn is called a baggot or rawner, yet looks in far better nick than some of the big black beasties taken by the Tweed rods in November.

Is there not a level of hypocrisy here!!!

Tenet

The Tay will have fish running probably every day of the year, the fish entering the river in November and December will be a mixture of very late running fish due to spawn shortly and a few early spring fish which are not due to spawn for nearly a year. Some of these very late running fish will still be spawning during January, indeed I watched a few still spawning when I fished Murthly on the last Saturday in January three seasons ago. Some of the fish caught in January and classed as baggots or rawners will indeed still spawn, that is the reason I thought the Newtyle decision to start fishing again in January was a retrograde step. This does not just cover the Tay, some of the smaller rivers, which do not have a spring run, but have a very late run, for instance the Ugie or Ythan, will produce these baggots and rawners in February and these are sometimes mistaken for fresh fish by inexperienced rods. Why these rivers open that early I do not know.